Navigating friendships as an adult on your spiritual journey has an array of challenges. There are a million books and talks out there on navigating romantic relationships with your partner, but we never are handed a guide on how to have a thriving, healthy friendship as an adult!

In this episode I sit down with Danielle Bayard Jackson aka @thefriendshipexpert and dive deep into all of the unspoken aspects of platonic relationships.

We discuss the conflicts of friendships, the questions to ask before discarding a friendship, the fantasy of platonic relationships, the unspoked obligation of history + loyalty, and why women measure against each other. Danielle shares her advice on how to elevate and nurture thriving friendships that are conducive to your growth, how to redesign your friendship algorithm, her top ways to make (or re-make) new friends, and more.

If you are struggling with finding aligned friendships, this episode is the advice and encouragement that you have been looking for! Join us in this heart-felt conversation that is sure to bring you reassurance, inspiration, and a new perspective on cultivating your community.

Connect with Danielle Bayard Jackson here https://www.instagram.com/daniellebay…

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Transcript

Episode #467: Let’s Get Real About Navigating Female Friendships As An Adult with Danielle Bayard Johnson
By Sahara Rose

[00:00] Danielle

Forty percent of adults don’t have a best friend, according to the latest research of Spring 2021. So, if you don’t have that one person, I mean, you’re in good company. If anything, see “What is it that I need and I’m not getting that from the collective community in my life? So, do I have a space in my life where I do feel very affirmed? Do I have a space where I feel intellectually challenged? Do I have a space where I can be vulnerable and entrust that it’s safe to be vulnerable here?” Perhaps you get all of that from the collective and your community, and that has to be a way to be sufficient and build you up.

And I do think it’s special when you find that from the singular, but can you find a way to be satisfied with enjoying those things from a collective community. 

[00:52] Sahara

Hello, hello! Good morning, good afternoon, wherever you are! Drop into this moment right here because we’re about to get started on The Highest Self Podcast, a place where we discuss what makes You, Your Soul’s Highest Evolvement.

[01:05] Sahara

I am your host, Sahara Rose, ancient soul, modern body! And for the past five and a half years, I’ve been tuning into this Podcast every single week, sharing ways that you can make spirituality more grounded, relatable and fun, because I believe the path to your highest self is through joy.

[01:23] Sahara

And one of the ways I have cultivated the most joy is through my friendships, through community. This is something I really, deeply stand for and this is why I created Rose Gold Goddesses, my Sacred Feminine Mystery School, and why I stand so deeply for women, men, non-binary, all people, to come together and be real with each other, create memories, share art, stories, wisdom, magic, because my greatest memories in this lifetime have always been with other people. 

[01:53] Sahara

And so many of us are deeply craving that connection. And specifically, I want to talk about female friendships here, because a lot of us, in middle school and high school, we may have had more friends than we have right now, but then we experienced a lot of the drama. You know, girls talking bad about each other, feeling left out, just all of the politics that can come in female friendships. And I feel like after being in high school and even college, we tend to focus more on our work and feel a little bit harder to make friends as an adult. It’s like, where are you going to meet all these people? Before, you could just go to school and meet a bunch of people. Whereas now, it’s a lot harder and people live in different parts of the city, the country, the world, and it takes a lot of energy to keep in touch, and there’s social media, and you’ve got to text, and do Zoom calls with each other, and just be really clear and honest with yourself about “What are the friendships I want to continue investing into and what are the friendships that served a purpose in my life for some period of time and I’m ready to move on from?” 

[02:55] Sahara

And I think that this gets a lot more complicated as well when we go on a spiritual journey because then we’re evolving and shifting so quickly that the people in our lives might not understand it. They might think we’re weird, crazy or we just might not find the same depth and value in the friendships. So, a lot can come up in female friendships on top of that being a spiritual person.  

[03:19] Sahara

So, this has been an area of real interest of mine, and I was on TikTok, where I find a lot of the guests on this Podcast, I’m like “Ohh, I life your wisdom!” And I found this beautiful woman, Danielle, and she was speaking about female friendships. She’s a friendship expert, this is what she focuses on, she’s written a book about it, and I just loved how she broke down so many common things that happen in female friendships, like jealousy, ghosting, how to navigate conflict, when it’s time for a friendship break-up, or when it’s time to work through a situation that might be showing up, all these really specifics that I know I have experienced. I really open up on this Podcast and share some situations with my friendships, and are really universal as well. 

So, this Episode has been one of my favorite yet on the Podcast, I really think it’s going to go down as one of the most downloaded because it’s so needed right now, and we really break down female friendships in all forms, from just common situations that you might experience. And I actually was asking her for advice on different things I have experienced too. You know, I feel, also, as entrepreneurs, there’s a lot of nuances in entrepreneurial friendships, sometimes it’s like, you’re friends, but are you business friends or are you actual friends? So, we talk about that and so much more on this Podcast. And I know you’re going to get so much value from it and probably listen to it again.

[04:39] Sahara

So, I highly recommend also sharing this with your friends because, hello, we want to have better female friendships! We’ve got to learn, because, frankly, none of us have been taught to do this and sometimes we just need to have compassion for everyone, where they are on their journey, and learn and share what we have learned and grown with, because that helps other people evolve as well. So, I know you’re going to just feel really seen and heard, and probably learn a lot more about, even, the ways that you have been showing up in female friendships through this Episode.

[05:07] Sahara

So, without further ado, let’s welcome Danielle to The Highest Self Podcast.

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[06:46] Interview

[06:46] Sahara

Welcome Danielle, to The Highest Self Podcast, it’s so great to have you here!

[06:50] Danielle

Thank you for having me, I’m really excited for this conversation! 

[06:53]  Sahara

Yes! And the first question I would love to ask you is, what makes you, your highest self? 

[06:59] Danielle

Definitely, without a doubt, my friendships. I think being in communion with women I love and who love me back, helps me to be my highest self.

[07:09] Sahara

So, I found you on TikTok, like, two years ago and I have just been obsessed with your content, because the way that you talk about, just, such common, yet unspoken about issues in friendships, it deeply resonated with me. 

And a lot of people listening to this Podcast have been on a spiritual journey and they might feel like they’ve outgrown a lot of friendships in their lives, they may feel lonely right now, of not having aligned friends, and they also may have friendships that they’re holding onto because they’ve known them for a really long time or they work together, or whatever else, but it’s not serving them. And a common thing I’ve noticed in the spiritual community, in my audience, is that fear of speaking your truth because you’re afraid that it might hurt people. So, I have lots of questions that I want to ask you about today, but, really, especially supporting people on spiritual journeys with their friendships because I think that’s one of the hardest things when you’re diving into personal development work, is like, not everyone else is, and sometimes you feel like you’re leaving people behind.

[08:07] Danielle

Yeah. I love that you have cued it up and teamed it up in that way because those are all such important things. And I am rooting for the woman who is committed to self-development, spiritual development, and then conflicted, because she sees how that inevitably touches the relationships that she’s cultivated up to that point. 

And so, I know that a woman is listening and I’m ready for us to have a discussion that hopefully, will add some value and clarity in her life.

[08:33] Sahara

Yes, yes! Okay, so, let’s talk about conflicts in friendships. You know, there a million books out there about how to navigate conflicts with your partner. And you know, when you’re in a relationship with someone, you have the love and the sexual chemistry and all those things holding you together, that you don’t necessarily have with a friend. And what I’ve noticed is, sometimes when conflict happens in friendship, we can be very quick to say “Well, this person is not meant to be in my life”. So, what questions should we ask ourselves before discarding a friendship?

[09:03] Danielle

Yeah. This is tough because, you know, I do think there are a lot of, perhaps, cultural things that have brought us to a space where we have not yet normalized a bit of healthy conflict in our platonic relationships as well. And I think that we anticipate it in our romantic relationships, there are tons of books to your point, on how to get over the hump. It’s assumed that we’re going to have them and that we’re going to have to communicate and get over them. But in friendship, I think we have this fantasy that I’ll just get her, she’ll get me, things will be unspoken, I don’t have to say my needs, and if there’s any kind of tension or misunderstanding, that is evidence that we are not compatible. And it doesn’t always work that way and I get fearful for the woman who sees any kind of tension as a reason to leave or as evidence that this is not going to work out. So, I appreciate you asking that question.

When we’re trying to figure out, okay, is it really time to leave? There are a couple things:

1) if you feel like you’ve been with somebody for so long, and the only reason you stay is because you feel an obligation to honor history. It’s no longer fulfilling, it’s not helping you grow, if anything, maybe it’s emotionally depleting, but you feel like you’ve got to stay because you’ve been their friend for so long, or because she showed up for you during a certain period of your life and you feel like you have to honor that loyalty, that it would be disloyal to end the friendship because that one time she was there for you. If that’s the reason you’re staying, I think that points to a need to reevaluate that friendship. Because, think about it from the other end, would you want a friend who, you found out she’s only friends with you because she feels like she has to be? I mean, you’d say “Oh my gosh, don’t do me any favors, please don’t stay here if you feel like you have to, I don’t want to bind you in that way”. So, that’s one indicator. 

And if there’s any kind of constant lying and manipulation, or guilty, things where you feel like you have to, very carefully, measure your words or you can’t be your full self because you’ll be punished or judged, or anything like that, I think that’s points to maybe a time for redirection.

If there’s some kind of major betrayal that you feel like you can’t get beyond, no matter how hard you try, because that will show up in other ways, we’re either going to start being a little passive-aggressive, or resentful, or you dread her texts and calls because you’re still not over that one thing. 

You know, I think some of these things point to “Maybe it’s time for me to reevaluate this friendship”.

[11:27] Sahara

Yeah. And even the being judged in friendship, I want to talk about that, because it’s inevitable in friendships, you’re going to have different preferences, right? Like, some people like to go out, some people like to stay in – so, how do we even navigate those differences when, like, we might feel like we’re being judged? Like, what’s a healthy amount of “Okay, I know this person might not love the way that I do this” or “I don’t love that I do that”, and accepting vs. maybe offering our opinion on it?

[11:58] Danielle

That’s such a great point! Okay, so this is a bit of a nuanced response because 1) you have to be confident in your choices, one, that’s important, because I’ve noticed that people who are not confident in themselves, their choices or what it is they have to offer, that question mark, it’s like they walk around with this question mark over their heads like a cloud and you need it affirmed everywhere you go. And you have to, kind of, be confident and assured you’re your own compass because a friend might say “Girl, you’re still doing that” or “Urgh, you like that”, does it totally rattle you to have friends who disapprove or they don’t agree or don’t share your lifestyle, or they would’ve chosen differently – can you still be in communion with somebody who does not see certain things the way that you do or does it totally rattle your sense of self? That’s the first thing.

I think the second thing is, is actual judgment or perceived judgment. So, it goes back to “I feel like I’m being judged”. I think, a lot of times, if you are insecure about a certain thing, you are going to feel judged everywhere because you are not sure about holding that position or view on something, so take care of that first. 

Now, some hard evidence with point 2 is – whenever you share an opinion or something like that, you have friends who speak to you in a condescending way, like “Oh, you like that?”, “Oh, you do that? I would never!”, okay, this person doesn’t affirm you, who you are, or allow you to have autonomy or allow you to have different choices, there’s no room for differentiation there, that is not okay.

If you have a friend who finds out that you made a choice that she wouldn’t have made about her life, so she withdraws in response to that, or belittles, or condescends, or questions in an attempt to convert or to change. Do you feel like you have enough safety where you can shine differently and choose differently, and it’s okay? 

Now, there is going to be some correction in close friendships where a friend says to me like “Danielle, that girl, that was mad, okay” or “I want to ask you about this because I don’t how I feel about that”, and we can safely engage in that kind of discourse, and I can either lean in to what she’s sharing and say “Okay, I never thought about it like that, you’re right”, or I can say “You know what, no. After listening to you, I don’t agree with that”, and we’re still okay. And so, it takes a couple of other things in an environment to feel that kind of emotional safety to have diverging opinions or paths, but if you do feel like “I really can’t be myself here”, then I think that points to something important.

[14:19] Sahara

And I think, also, knowing that we can have different friends for different sides of ourselves. And you know, we might have those friends that we love doing yoga with, and those friends that we love talking about tv shows with, and friends that we love going hiking with. 

So, I feel like, often, in the media, we see this portrayal of like “You’re my best friend and we’re going to do everything and we’re going to have everything in alignment”, and then when there’s one thing that you don’t then you’re like “Is this really my best friend?”

So, how can we satisfy the different sides of ourselves through different types of friendships without feeling like, yeah, this idea that one friendship or a group of friends needs to be my core group of friends and I can’t go outside of that? 

[14:58] Danielle

Yeah, I love you asking that because it gives us permission to explore what best friendship looks like. Now, this is not necessarily an idea that everyone adopts, but my position on best friends is that, you don’t always have to get everything you need from one person. If anything, it does kind of put a lot of pressure on that person.

Now, I do acknowledge that some women have that. I think that’s very beautiful to feel like “Yeah, I found someone who is funny and she gets, you know, all of my little quirks”, and she satisfies all these things from you, I think is really beautiful. But forty percent of adults don’t have a best friend, according to, like, the latest research of Spring 2021. So, if you don’t have that one person, I mean, you’re in good company. If anything, say “What is it that I need and I’m not getting that from the collective community in my life? So, do I have a space in my life where I do feel very affirmed? Do I have a space where I feel intellectually challenged? Do I have a space where I can be vulnerable and entrust that it’s safe to be vulnerable here?” Perhaps you get all of that from the collective and your community, and that has to be a way to be sufficient and build you up.

And I do think it’s special when you find that from the singular, but can you find a way to be satisfied with enjoying those things from a collective community, my first thought to that. 

And then, once you open up to that idea, perhaps, yeah, you can be comfortable with getting all those things from different pockets of the world, without putting the pressure on one person to sustain, satisfy and affirm you in a bunch of different ways. If anything, there’s research that shows that we benefit from having a lot of different people, because we do show different sides of ourselves with different people. 

One activity I like to do with clients is, you know, to have them repeat the statement “I am *blank*”, and to fill that in as many times as possible. I challenge them to like ten or twenty times. You’re likely filling that out with different aspects of your identity, so, for me “I am a mother”, “I am woman”, “I am black”, all those things make me who I am. And then I encourage you to go to the spaces where you feel like those aspects of your identity are affirmed, “Where do I feel like I can be a mom”, and women just get it, or “I can be an intellectual”, and people get it, “I can be a woman”, and I feel like “Yes, I feel more of a woman among this company, I feel so tuned into my woman here. So, identifying those aspects of your identity should point you to the spaces you should occupy, to be among the people who can affirm that aspect of yourself. 

[17:22] Sahara

That is such a good practice! And I think, sometimes, what happens is, we take one of those things and we make that our core group of friends, so, like “I am a mother, so, single people don’t understand me, I can’t be friends with people who aren’t mothers”, and we discard the other friends, we’re only friends with the mother friends, for example, and then we feel like we can’t have those intellectual conversations or we can’t do this, and we’re missing all these different sides, and then we’re trying to turn someone into something else. And I think that that’s such a great practice to see. 

And even, not even so much of identity, but like “I am joyful”, it’s like, who are the friends who bring the joy out of me; “I am intuitive”, who are the friends that I get to talk about intuition with me, and even just different sides of our personalities and soul selves, and reflecting that in friend groups. 

[18:05] Danielle

Yes, totally agree! That’s beautiful! 

[18:07] Sahara

Yes! And I want to talk about this concept of best friends, because I feel like it has so much pressure in our society, it’s like, you know, from the time you’re a kid, you have the best friend’s bracelets, and you’re the other side of my heart. And if you don’t have a best friend, it can feel like lonely or is something wrong with me? And I heard someone say something funny of “A best friend is not a person is not a person, but a tier”, and that women don’t have necessarily one singular best friend, they may, but it’s often like a tier of how close I am to you. So, for best friends, you know, for some people that might be their top four friends, or even their top ten friends. 

So, what does the word best friend really mean to you in your research?

[18:49] Danielle

I totally, I’ve heard that before, about the tier, and I love that so much because I think it gives a lot of room to being able to engage with a lot of different people in a lot of different ways, it kind of gives you permission. 

On my podcast, The Friend Board Podcast, I did an episode on that, taking about, okay, for some women it is a singular individual, for some it’s, you know, the collective. There’s research on why we feel this way, so we don’t feel like we’re just in our heads and it’s just us. The number one thing that women prioritize in their female friendships is emotional support, and the second thing is prioritization, meaning “If I feel like you’re my number one, I kind of secretly expect that I’m your number one too”. But we like feeling like we’re on the same wavelength, you and me. Also, we tend to get close through self-disclosure. So, I’m sharing what I like with you, you’re sharing with me, and eventually it feels like we’re creating like this special sacred bolt, you and I, you get me, you see me. And so, the idea that you can duplicate this special thing somewhere else feels like it diminishes the value of what we have. And so, I think that’s why we really gravitate toward one-to-one, because it feels so close and intimate. And our friendships are, they do have more platonic intimacy than men’s friendships because we open up and we share, we’re there for each other. And our friendships tend to be more dyadic, one-to-one, as opposed to men, who will have multiple friends.

And so, I can see how, all those things, when you add them up, it equals, we’re looking for that one woman who just gets it, you know.

And so, again, I think that’s a very special thing, and if that’s a goal of yours, to find someone who you can really open up with and create something very special with, I think that’s a lovely sentiment. I would just say, look at the ways that maybe limits or restricts your satisfaction of life, how it may excuse some of your friend-making journey, if you’re looking for that one singular person to maybe, kind of, reevaluate what that looks like. Do you find that you get clingy and obsessive with one person and you’re trying to create fast friendship, and now you’re neglecting all these other people in your life who bring you joy?

So, look at, kind of, how, you know, impacts relationship. Do you currently have a best friend, but you find that you have so many expectations of her? Or if she goes and hangs out with other people, it really emotionally impacts you because you haven’t nurtured other friendships. So, I would say, if you want to have a best friend, or you have a best friend, just put your head on a swivel and look at the ways that holding that value is maybe indirectly impacting other relationships in your life.

[21:16] Sahara

That’s such great advice! And you know, one of the tricky things about best friends too is like, when do you decide your best friends? You know, it’s like, you’re getting close with someone, it’s like, it almost feels weird, it’s like “Are you my girlfriend or are we best friends?”, and then it’s like putting a label on and that same pressure. And maybe for one person, that is their number one, but you’re not their number one, and I feel like it’s just a hard conversation to have. And another thing that you alluded to are the friendship expectations. 

And I know for some people, they have a lot of expectations, of like “What does it mean to be in my inner circle?”, and this means we talk every single day and we do this and that. And for some people, they’re a little bit more distant as friends, and you might be best friends and not talk for months.

I’d love to ask you from, just learning so much from so many different female friendships, how much should we verbally talk about our expectations vs. them just, kind of, like, naturally coming to be in a relationship? Should we be like “Hey, now that we’re best friends, these are what my expectations are”, or is that going to scare people away?

[22:17] Danielle

Yeah. Okay, so, I don’t get this question much, but I think it’s so important. In terms of, like, when to have the expectations talk? You know, I feel like when we bring it to the table like it’s a contract, it could feel formal, it could feel intimidating, it could change, like…

[22:31] Sahara

Sign here!

[22:32] Danielle

Exactly, like “Here are my terms and expectations, do you agree?” You know, I love the idea of bringing it up as it comes along, unless you know that there’s something that you feel like, upfront, is so urgent and so important, that people need to know from beginning and you determine that for yourself, okay. But I like the idea of bringing it up as it happens, so that it feels organic.

So, maybe I have a friend to text me a lot, I mean like all the time, and I’m thinking “Oh my God, that is a lot for me personally, that is a lot”, so maybe, in this moment, I lovingly say to her like “Hey, just a heads up, if you find that I’m really delayed on texts, it’s not personal, but I’ve noticed that I’m kind of like a check-in once a week kind of gal, so I just wanted to throw that out, so that we’re on the same page”, it’s not, it doesn’t make her feel like she got lectured, hopefully it doesn’t embarrass her, but it helps to align our expectations. So, maybe she still is the type who likes to touch daily, that’s still her, but at least, now, she has data that can help her understand how to interpret my response so that she doesn’t internalize that “Oh, Danielle must be mad at me”, “Oh, Danielle must not be interested, I guess, she’s not responding back”, and it’s like “Oh no, I have a bit of a lower touch style”, and so, she can keep being herself, I can keep being myself, but at least, now, we kind of like bridged the gap a little bit. And hopefully, if we find value in the friendship, you know, keep moving forward together. 

So, I think organically bringing it up, when it happens, is a more natural to address it, as opposed to writing it all down and letting people know what all your expectations are, which can kind of make it feel like a boss-employee dynamic, like “Here are the rules, and I just want to let you know”, as opposed to “Hey, here’s how I feel loved”, “Here’s where I’m thriving”, “These are the things that really make me feel great”.

And when it comes to boundary setting, I like to suggest that we kind of do it that way, to talk about what you really, really like. And I mean, the meta message there, the subtext is, that you don’t like these things. So, instead of, for example “Hey, I don’t like when people call me late at night, I don’t like that, when you’re blowing up my phone after 9:00PM, please don’t do that”, can feel so restrictive and stiff, and feel like a correction, instead of like “Hey, so, I know that I’m really best on the phone before 6:00PM, my brain is alert and I am alive. And so, if you want to call me before 8:00PM, I’m telling you now, that’s when you’re going to get my best”. And so, I’m redirecting rapport what I’m really like, and come join me over here, I made the implications that I dislike the opposite.

And I think that, when it comes to setting expectations, doing it in a loving, matter of fact way, might be better for people to receive. 

[25:03] Sahara

I love that, of how you’re saying, instead of “Please, don’t contact me after 9:00PM”, it’s in this really friendly and compassionate way, saying “You know, I’m really at my best before 6:00PM or 8:00PM,”, so it’s giving them through love rather than through punishment. 

Another question I have for you is, friendships in triages. You know, I think, sometimes, that gets really tricky, in my own experience. And it has even happened in my own life where there was, like, four of us, and one kind of fell out and then there were three of us, and it worked for a really long time but there was always this, like “Oh, they’re hanging out without me and are they getting closer, are they talking about me?”, and like a little bit of that fear. And eventually the triage just did not work. 

So, I’m curious if you’ve noticed this dynamic among women, just doesn’t work because of the one-on-one reciprocal nature of the feminine, or how it can work?

[25:56] Danielle

Okay, so exactly what you just said about, our nature is to have that very special sacred vault, one-to-one dyads, you talk to me, I talk to you. And there’s new research that finds that most of us (more than half of us) hang out in a one-to-one setting, so that’s what we do. Why? Because it’s easier to coordinate hanging out, “Are you free? / Are you free?”, you know, it’s easier to determine reciprocity, “I gave, so you gave. I talked, so you talked”. It seems easier to balance and we know where to stand. And then 18% of us congregate regularly as trios, and 9% of us as four, so on and so forth. So, it’s more common to be in a pair because it seems easier to facilitate and to navigate how we’re going to gradually deepen this relationship and I can identify more easily when things seem off balance.

[26:45] Sahara

Yeah, with three, you almost feel like a facilitator.

[26:48] Daniella

Yeah. 

[26:49] Sahara

Of like, did you speak and it just takes a lot more planning and work? And I think that that adds the formal dynamic to it.

[26:56] Danielle

Absolutely. And so, you know, I know, you know, trios, successful trios to be true, I’ve seen it, and women it and they do just fine. I do think there are a lot of things that have to be in place for a trio to be successful. One is, I think you need to have a relatively secure attachment style so that you’re not panicky and anxious whenever they do text without you or whenever they do get coffee and you’re not invited, or you automatically go into “Oh my gosh, they hate me, they’re talking about me. Why didn’t they invite me, what does that say?” If you are likely to go there, I think, yes, friendship trios are going to be a very challenging dynamic for you, maybe mentally and emotionally. So, you have to be secure. 

The second is, you have to understand that there are going to be varying degrees of closeness throughout the trio. So, maybe they met in high school and they’re like three degrees closer than they are with you. Is that okay? Can you find a way for that to be okay? Or is that always going to bother you because you’re trying to maintain a perfect equality across the border three? I mean, that might drive you nuts, so I think that’s kind of tricky too. 

And then, finally, I think you have to have friends outside of the trio, because if these two are your everything, it is going to hit a little harder if they do talk without you, or if they are clicking this week because they both left their jobs at the same time. So, they are kind of bonding over this life season right now and I have to be okay with that, and if not, it helps to kind of buffer it by having other friendships as well. So, it can be done, but if you’re experiencing hardship in the trio, I totally would understand why.

[28:27] Sahara

Yeah. And I think a tough thing that happens in trios is when there is a conflict, it’s more likely that two people are going to be more on the same side as the other, and the third person’s just going to feel ganged up against, which, if their two best friends are agreeing, that kind of feels like the end of the world, you know, and that might make someone just completely discard and remove themselves. So, I feel like managing conflict does require just a lot more self-responsibility and compassion for one another and conversation.

And that brings me back to how to navigate, really, conflict in friendships and attachment styles. So, I’ve noticed, just like attachment styles in relationships, we have them in friendships. Some of us tend to be a little more on the anxious side of when something’s, you know, there’s a conflict brewing, we want to… Like, I’m more of this, I want to talk about it, I want to know how you feel, like, I want to know that we’re good. I’m going to be thinking about it all the time, so it like puts me at ease for us to talk about it right now. And for other people, they need their time, they need their space, they’re like “Don’t contact me for a week, I need to go and really think about this and then I’m going to come back and let you know”. And I think, just the way life works, we often end up in the opposite pair. 

So, how do we navigate this while, you know, I think we’re all striving to be secure, but have you noticed, we still tend to fall on one of those sides even if it’s not as much?

[29:46] Danielle

Sure, oh, absolutely! And I think, you know, and I’ll stay in my lane, but I do know a lot of how conflict was a thing in our home, I think that impacts how we show up in friendship. And I just think the nature of friendship itself, too, you know, I heard, Dr. Marissa Franco, who’s a friendship expert and psychologist. And the way that she describes attachment styles really resonates with me, she says it’s about what you project onto moments of ambiguity, says a lot, and that there’s a lot ambiguity in friendship. So, one example she gave is, you know, let’s say you’re sitting at an event, you’re waiting for your friend to show up, you turn around and see her walk in, you get excited and she goes and sits somewhere else and you saved her a seat. What do you think in that moment? Is your first thought “Oh, oh my gosh, what, is she mad at me? What the heck? Let me text her, ‘are you okay, are you mad at me?’, let me go follow her to see what’s going on”, that might be more anxious. Is it “Oh, okay, so, she sees me and she’s not even going to sit here. You know what, that’s fine, I don’t even need her to sit here, I’m fine’, that might be more on the other end of the spectrum, you know, avoidance. Both of those are fearful of rejection, they just respond to it in different ways, “I’m scared I’m going to be rejected, so let me go and cling and press harder”, “I’m scared I’m going to be rejected, so let me push her away first, I’ll be fine”, and then there’s security attach where I assume, during this moment of ambiguity, “Oh, maybe she doesn’t see me, let me text her and make sure she knows I’m up front. I feel okay about it, I trust that she didn’t mean anything by it”, you know, and it doesn’t mean being naïve, it just means the benefit of the doubt and that I believe that I have something to offer in friendships, so I’m not questioning myself and who I am whenever something happens, you know, “Is she mad? Am I awful? Not friendly, she lost interest in me, of course, people always lose interest in me. I trust that I have something to offer and I trust for other people to give me love”, and that’s what it comes down to.

And so, when it comes conflicts in friendship, I wonder how much of it is the nature of friendship itself? That we don’t have these formal contracts, that we don’t have these milestones to celebrate, that we’re not having conversations about, you know, “Are we exclusive, are we not?” So, so much of it is ambiguous, that I think it does allow further to be more room of “Hold on, what’s going on, what did you mean by that?” And then, do we have the kind of security where we can bicker or disagree, I’m not totally fighting because I know we’re going to be okay. But have we established that, that we’re going to come back around and reconcile or is it like a “Oh gosh, there’s a little, you know, fisher here, I guess this is the beginning of the end”. And so, as much as we can, kind of, make it normal to disagree, to maybe have a little awkward moment, you know, I’m inevitably going to hurt your feelings, unintentionally, because I’m a person who lets people down sometimes and I forget things, or, you know, is there room for you to make mistakes or do we see mistakes as evidence of “I shouldn’t be here, you’re a bad friend, I knew it”.

I think that, one thing we do that I don’t think is the best, is something that’s called Fundamental Attribution Error. And so, whenever another person makes a mistake, we attribute it to their character instead of a circumstance. So, one example people often give is, if you’re in traffic and somebody cuts you off, instead of thinking like “Oh, they might be, you know, late, or they didn’t see me”, it’s like “Oh my God, she’s so rude! People are so rude these days! How could you do that to another person? How could you be so thoughtless and selfish?”

And so, I think when our friends make these mistakes, are we going to, like “Wow, I didn’t even, okay, I didn’t realize she is kind of selfish, that was kind of rude”, instead of like “Okay, I don’t know what happened today to make her, kind of, pop off at me on the phone just now, I’m going to assume she’s having a bad day”, and later I’m going to come and ask her “Hey, are we good? You seemed really tense on the phone, that’s not like you, like, what’s happening?”, as opposed to “Wow, that was so rude and she’s so selfish and I don’t know that I can be friends with a woman who’s selfish like that”. We go all the way over there. 

And so, I think, kind of, having curiosity, making room to have tension, showing that you value reconciliation and talking it out, has to be normal for us to be able to recover a lot of these friendships that, I would argue, end prematurely, because we don’t know how to navigate conflict in a healthy way.

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[36:02] Sahara

You’re so right, and what you said about how friendships, we don’t have that milestones, we don’t have the container, we don’t have the conversation that we do in relationships, that there’s so much ambiguity and there’s so much unsaid, which we attach our own story to, of how we see the world. And, you know, that friend, not sitting with us, however you see the world and you see yourself, that’s going to be the story of it.

And I think, also, what happens too is we project the way that we feel about our own lives on that other person, of “Oh, like, this person is not staying with me, they must just be so jealous of me”, and we go off into that story. Or, however we’re often times feeling, we mirror that exact perception on someone else. 

So, how can we deal with conflict if someone is projecting their own insecurities on you?

[36:49] Danielle

Yeah, that’s tough. If you notice that you feel like a friend is coming at you with stuff, you’re like “Okay, where is this coming from? I feel like this is her insecurity”, whatever. I always say to address things with as much invitation as possible, instead of accusation, because no one responds well to that. So, instead of “I feel like you’re being a little jealous”, which, by the way, that has never helped any friendship ever, by saying that. But by saying like “I feel like you’re jealous”, you’re like “I feel like you’re jealous-projecting, I feel like”, I mean, a person’s first natural inclination is “No, I’m not, what are you talking about?”, we’re not getting anywhere. But being able to point to tangibles and talking about the impact of their behavior, I have found to be more fruitful. So, instead of saying like “I feel like you’re jealous because, I mean, you came at me during, you know, lunch the other day”, or “I talked about my promotion and I didn’t hear you say congratulations, what, are you jealous or something?”, instead, it’s going to be, I take her one-on-one, not in front of an audience and say, you know, “Hey, are you good? Are we good? Because I noticed that I shared XYZ the other day and I noticed you responded in this tangible way and it made me feel like there was like a disconnect between us, so I just wanted to make sure, like, am I reading into it or are we good?”, because it shows her “I see it”, you know, because some people stop whenever they notice that you notice, it shows concern, like “I’m genuinely wondering, because that was so not like you, are we good?”, and it shows her that I want to be in communion with you, I want to be in fellowship with you, so let’s make sure that we’re on the same page about this issue before it festers. Because a lot of us, when we sense that, maybe somebody’s projecting on us, we go to other people like “Did you see what she did yesterday? Is she jealous or something?”, and then we build up, build up, build up this story so by the time we go back to her, we don’t have a heart to even reconcile or to, like, approach her with love, because we’ve been, like, getting hyped up by the squad and now we’re coming to her, like, ready to fight. And also, you know, we say this a lot, but having grace with another person, sometimes it really isn’t about you. I mean, I think that we know that intellectually, but like, getting that printed on your parrot, it is not about you. If a friend is jealous, it might be because she feels like you having is the reflection of her lacking, you got this job, you got this man, you got this ma”, “Man, what does that say for me?”, she doesn’t understand like “Yeah, I can have, and there’s enough room for you to have too. Me having doesn’t me you lacking”, but it’s rarely about you, the person.

So, yeah, so it’s hard when friends project, and if you find that she is sabotaging the friendship or you feel like you can’t share your wins, you have to, kind of, dim your light a little bit because you don’t want her to be uncomfortable, that really, really says something about the friendship, that you feel like you cannot do that without being penalized in some kind of way.

[39:31] Sahara

I think we’ve all felt that, we’ve felt, you know, that feeling of projection. And I think, yeah, definitely if you tell someone “Well, you’re just jealous of me”, you’re never going to get anywhere and that person’s just going to take the opposite side and you’re not going to…

You know, I think, sometimes, we have to think what is our end goal and if our end goal really is resolution… That’s the tough thing for me, it’s like, sometimes, how much of my truth should I really share and how much should I just come from a place of just compassion, seeing their side and letting it go.

So, let’s say someone you had a conflict and they said some things that they didn’t like about you, how much should you be like “Well, if that’s how they feel about me, then I don’t know if I feel safe in this friendship” vs. “You know what, they were in a place of conflict, in a place of pain and that’s what they said and maybe they didn’t mean it and let’s just move on and resolve this friendship?” Like, what’s line there?

[40:21] Danielle

Yeah, that’s so tricky, right? Because it’s hard, I think it’s hard with friends, especially female friends because there’s so much of you, as a woman, who mirrors me as a woman, and it’s so intimate in that way. And so, it’s like, if a woman rejects you, it feels more painful for some reason because it’s like “You are me, I am you, and so, if I’m not good enough here or accepted here, it feels more painful”. If a friend tells you like “I don’t like this about you, I don’t like that about you”, well, the first thing, I would question her motive or tell her to explain to me what is the objective, you know. So, if it’s to cut me down, so, I think it’s like “I think you think you’re all that and I don’t like your tone and I think you’re judgmental”, my question would be “Are you telling me this because, as a friend, you feel like me doing these things is getting in the way of us being close, or you feel? What is the point?” Because if the point is taking pleasure in humbling me, that says something, as opposed to, “You’re correcting me right now because you’re concerned about the path I’m going down, because you’ve noticed that I have a certain attitude or something, that’s getting in the way of us being friends and you can’t trust me anymore”. And so, the goal is “Let me make it known because I want to bring us close or because I’m nervous about the path you’re going down”, that’s different than “Let me tell you about yourself because I think you need to be humbled”. And we only do that to people who are shining brightly. I mean, you wouldn’t tell somebody else that you think they’re all that, that they’re too good if you already, kind of, see them as woolly, or humble, or mediocre. We only offer that kind of feedback to people we think are shining too brightly, to bring them down a peg. So, that already says something right there, but I would ask them what’s the point. Like, okay, and then telling me all that, like “What’s the point, I’m just trying to understand”, and like, calling it out because I’d be so curious about how they respond to that, “Well, I’m letting you know because I’m just concerned, I’m seeing danger ahead if you keep up with that attitude”, “Oh, so you’re concerned about me?”, or is it just like “I don’t know, I think you’re just getting like a big head or you think you’re too good”, like “I don’t think I’m too good”, “You think I think I’m too good, there’s nothing to do with me”, you know. So, I think adding people the motivation right up front, I think is helpful, in making them process in their own brain and say it out their own mouth, having to reason and not allow them to push you back.

If you have a friend who gives you feedback that’s difficult, one, it’s okay to agree to disagree, it’s okay to say “Okay, I mean, I don’t see that, I really don’t, but I hear you, I do, I hear you”, it’s okay. Number two, to take time to process. I think a lot of pressure comes from feeling like you have to respond right now and you have to know the right thing to say, it’s okay sometimes to say “Hmm, okay, well, I didn’t know you felt that way and I got to be honest with you, I think I need some time to process how I feel before I even respond to you”. And give yourself a break, give yourself a week to, like, process those feelings, as the first thing out of your mouth might be something you regret or that you can’t totally commit to later, so, it’s okay to ask for time to process. But if you do sense that, generally, you have a friend who’s telling you “constructive criticism”, but the objective is to humble you, I would understand if you didn’t feel emotionally safe there, to shine and to show up as your full self.

[43:32] Sahara

And I think, sometimes, people mix these two intentions up, that they’re like “I’m trying to humble you because I care about you”, and it’s like, well, which one is it, you know? Or “I’m here to be your mirror because no one else can”. And I think, sometimes we enter that tricky territory of like “Are you being my coach or my friend?” And I see this happen to, you know, a lot of my friends, we actually are coaches, like, that’s what we do, and with one of my friends, we ask each other like “Are we in the container?”, and that’s, kind of, like the question of “Okay, we’re stepping into, I’m going to be asking you questions that are a little bit more coaching questions rather than just, like, showing up as your friend”, so we kind of ask each other for that. 

So, what would you do if someone is like “You know what, Danielle, I’m going to be the mirror for you because no one else is. I think you’re XYZ”, and they have this feedback for you that, kind of, was unsolicited. How would you respond in this?

[44:29] Danielle

Yeah, that’s tricky, I was going to ask you what your experience is of having a circle of people who do guide and coach, and what that means as a friend, when it’s like “Well, I don’t want to be coached, I just need you to love on me right now, I don’t want to be pointed and challenged”.

Yeah, it’s tricky. If you have someone who’s telling you things and you didn’t ask, I just, kind of, go back to what I said before about asking them “Okay, so, something’s going on where you feel the need to share that, like, you feel prompted and compelled to express that. What’s going on?”, and asking them where did that come from, especially unsolicited. And I really just enjoy the main strategy of making people, explicitly say out of their mouth, what the point was. If you don’t trust the reason that they offer you “Oh, I’m just trying to be a mirror, I’m just trying to be helpful”, sometimes we don’t even have the need to express. If you feel like you’ve seen enough evidence, over time, that this person secretly takes delight in telling you things that are not helpful, like, you can’t that feedback and actually grow with it, it was meant to, kind of, trip away and bring you down a notch, then at some point, you might find that it’s not fruitful to keep, like, contending with them and that might be something that you have three options. 1) you reduce the frequency with which you see this person, because I’ve noticed some friendships can survive if they’re in lesser doses – so, the frequency. Your second option is recategorization, where you think to your mind “Okay, I’ve been having her on the top number one shelf of friendship in my mind, I don’t think I can do that anymore, because I’m seeing I can’t bring her these things, but man, I love brainstorming with her as like an entrepreneur friend. I think I’m going to have to take her off shelf number one and just reserve her as my fun business friend on shelf number three, and no longer bring her these things because you’re no longer safe here”. Or three, you know, withdraw from the friendship completely, if for some reason you think it’s severe enough, that you are really being tainted in some way by consistently being her company.

So, you know, you have options. I know we tend to go from, like, stay besties or cut her off, but there are some things in the middle, there are some options that make it so that if her friendship does add value to your life, you can still sustain it, but if you find that you have to shrink yourself to be accepted here, I think that points to something more important.

[46:47] Sahara

Yes, I love that, of looking at the intentions, and maybe it’s not an all or nothing, but it’s just a recategorization. And yeah, your question about what is it like to be friends with everyone who’s a coach or a guide. 

I think what happens, often, in these circles is, there’s an element of competition that I’ve noticed of “How’s your coaching practice going?”, “Oh, you did a launch like this”, and a kind of looking at people, sometimes, of like “What can you do for me? Are we going to collab? Are we going to be on each other’s podcasts? Are we going to this?”, so it’s like, either, like, they’re interested in you because of the opportunity that you provide. Like, it’s sometimes hard for me too, because when I meet friends, they’re like “Oh, you have a podcast”, then they kind of start pitching themselves to me, to be on the podcast, so it’s, like, this sort of like “Do you want to be my friend or do you want to use my platform?”, and then, I just see this happen a lot in the coaching world. So, there is that element of competition and also an element of hierarchy too, of like “We are the 7-figure coaches”, “We are the 6-figure coaches”, “We are that”, and it’s this interesting hierarchy of – and I understand, it’s like why are celebrities friends with other celebrities, it’s like only those types of people can understand their types of problems, so, I get how business owners want to be friends with people who have similar business models as them, and structures, but it can definitely feel clicky and hierarchal. Especially when I used to live in LA and, like, everyone was in that space, it was very focused on getting into certain friend groups.

[48:11] Danielle

That is so interesting to me. I’ve has a couple clients who, I mean, first I’ll say, that’s so tricky and I have a heart to share because you do want to be able to bring your troubles to your friends, without questioning “Hold on a second, are you going to use this information in some kind of way or are you just, like, hearing my heart right now and you want to share with me, the woman?” And it hurts, sometimes, when you mentally have to do the labor of like “Okay, hold on, let me differentiate, am I safe here?” So, I feel for you there, for sure.

It’s funny because a lot of times, I think, when people hear of a friendship coach, they assume that the kind of person hiring me would be a very socially awkward, wallflower with no friend, and it’s mostly high-achieving, charismatic, successful women who say exactly what you just said “I’m in these spaces, I have friends galore, but I don’t know, I don’t trust some of them, I think I need to do a friendship pruning” or “I’m so obsessed with my job that I turn around, I notice that I don’t even have fiends because I’m so career-driven”, and so, it’s mostly charismatic women who are trying to figure out how to continue to elevate and thrive in soil that is conducive to their growth, and not trying to bring them down.

And I think with women I know, you cannot have a conversation about female friendship without talking about, you know, competition. It’s tricky, because, what we said earlier, you know, woman to woman “I’m using you as a model of, like, how we navigate this world”, like “You know what it’s like to be a woman navigating this world, and just because of that alone, I feel connected to you”. And I do think we use, we watch each other, to determine standards. You know, like “Maybe I do admire her”, like “Man, I love the way she dresses”, “Man, I love the way she carries herself”. So, we do kind of measure against each other to know like “Okay, how is she achieving womanhood? How is she walking her womanhood and femininity?”, and it might be from learning from it, I might be attractive to that because I want to be like that too in some ways and you’re a model for me. So, I think there’s so much of that, but I totally see how it gets worrying sometimes. And now I feel like “I can’t shine unless, you know, you’re shining, it takes away from my shine”, instead of seeing it as like a model or being able to genuinely be thrilled for you, and so it becomes kind of tricky.

One suggestion I can give is, you know, if you feel like you’re meeting a new friend, she keeps bringing up the business stuff, you know, to sometimes even say, with a smile, like “Okay, you know what, I feel like I’m going to take my coach’s hat off with you and it would just be no coaching stuff, I need a break, girl”, so, I’m joking, but I’m also assessing out from the beginning “Would you be interested in maintaining a friendship with me if I am not talking to you about my gains this month, and my podcast guests, and the money, could you still enjoy me? Would you be able to go to lunch if we didn’t take pictures and we didn’t do a video of us going to lunch? Would you be content with that?”, because that, right there, if you’d feel like “Man, I really want to get a picture together, of us, at lunch, why?” So, I like to, kind of, ask those questions in the beginning to sus out “Oh, you’re here for me because you think I’m funny or because we have a lot in common and you enjoy talking to me”. But you know, that could be one little tester, in the beginning, to see if somebody is interested in getting to know you because of your light, there’s something intriguing about you and they want to, just like, gradually unfold more and more about who you are as a person and to build something meaningful together, as opposed to somebody who sees an opportunity, social mobility, through you, as opposed to someone who sees you as an access to resources. 

And so, kind of, being observant in the beginning stages might be a little helpful to ensure that you can relax and to be your full self, without wondering if it’s going to be weaponized or leverage for something impure.

[51:52] Sahara

That’s such great advice! And I have noticed too, that, when we go on an entrepreneurial journey, it’s so much of lives, we want to make other friends who are also entrepreneurs, and we want to talk about those things. And a lot of friendship groups, I’ve noticed, circle around, like, a mastermind, that we get together to mastermind, to talk about our ideas, and then what I think, and not just for myself, but for everyone I noticed in that, it was a little bit tricky to know like, are we actually friends or is this friendship based off of talking about our business? Like, if our businesses weren’t there, would we all be friends? And I think that what you suggested of, you know, talking about something besides business and seeing if they’re still interested, and the sad thing is, is like, I know, and in most of these circles, I’m no longer a part of because I don’t live in LA anymore, but I know, at that time, if I just showed up – because once I was in a mastermind circle and they’re like “Okay, what’s your business thing?”, I’m like “I want to DJ and host events”, and they never invited me back to the mastermind. So, it showed me, because I wasn’t giving them what they wanted, of like the numbers and the business, and this and that, it was no longer a value for them in that way.

And I think that’s okay too, they were pretty clear of “We’re bringing women together, so we can be in business, talking about business together”, and that was their expectation, at least they were, kind of, upfront with that. 

[53:09] Danielle

Yeah, yeah. And you know, maybe the exercise we talked about earlier, with like the “I am” statement, to your point, I know some of us, we love our business, like, that’s our baby, we’re up at night thinking of ideas and jotting in notes before we forget, you know, we’re obsessed, and I get it. But maybe that’s where some of us, if we want more meaningful relationships, is to answer those questions “I am *blank*”, “I am *blank*”, because what else are you other than coach, guide, entrepreneur? Because have you done anything to nurture that? Are you occupying spaces where that aspect of your identity can thrive? You know, so, maybe if you love to dance, are you going to dance classes? And we’re not even talking business, people don’t even know what you do. That way you’re, kind of, nurturing all the parts of yourself that make you who you are, as opposed to always leading with coaching the business and things like that.

And so, you know, for some of us, that might help us to enjoy more satisfactory friendships, if they’re not necessarily predicated on what we can offer from a professional standpoint.

[54:08] Sahara

So good! So, I want to talk about something you said about a friendship algorithm. What is a friendship algorithm?

[54:16] Danielle

That, I, definitely got off of Dr. Marissa Franco, she’s an author of the book “Platonic”, and just became a New York Times Bestseller, so, she’s doing really well, and she’s so, I admire this woman’s knowledge so much. And she kind of talks about, how through life and your childhood, and you go through certain experiences, you design a certain algorithm. So, kind of like how, you know, when you’re on social media, you like enough of the same types of things you’re training in, “Oh, this is what you like”, “This is what you do”, so “This is what I’ll show you more of”. So, how are you operating in your friendships because of, maybe, things you’ve done in the past, or you’ve experienced in the past, and how does that continually shape what you experience moving forward? For some of us, do we need to change our algorithm, become intentional about what we’re pursuing about the people we entertain and how can that give us more authority in shaping the kinds of friendships that we enjoy.

[55:09] Sahara

I relate to being in a stage of my life when, literally, I had to change my algorithm a 180°, you know, like, both, like, literal, my algorithm on Instagram because it was all like food stuff, but then also, that time of my life, I had to go through a massive friendship change because, you know, I was changing who I am. So, sometimes, it’s like, you’ve got to unfollow all the old friends, all the old accounts and be like “Who is this new version of me and what is on their algorithm?” And then, sometimes, it’s like the little tweaks, the reorganization. Do you suggest, to people, to actually write out the tiers of my friends, like “These are my inner circle”, “These are my close friends”, “These are my acquaintances”, “These are my once-a-year friends”, and, like, how would you label that? 

[55:52] Danielle

You know what’s funny is, if you asked me that like 3 years ago, I’d be like “No, don’t write down your friends, your friends…” 

Now, that I’ve seen the research, I talk to women every week, I’m like “Oh my God, yes, yes, do that!” Here’s why – there is a concept known as Dunbar’s Number, and the idea is that you can only cognitively maintain 150 social connections. So, you might have a million followers, but in your brain, I mean, it hasn’t evolved that much.

[56:19] Sahara

And that includes, like, celebrities you follow, influencers?

[56:22] Danielle

No, we’re talking about people who, we have this, like, more personal connection with, so, like, even if it was from my, like, super, super, super close friends, to the barista I see three times a week, or, like, my boyfriend’s cousin, like, people in my mind who I know (150, right?) So, of you imagine that as like a really large circle (150), and then smaller and smaller concentric circles inside of that, to represent a closer range together, but also, like, fewer people than – when we get to the smallest number in the middle, the number is 5, the ideas that your brain can only handle, 5 super close relationships, which kind of makes sense when we think about what goes into cultivating super close friendships – time, energy, you’re remembering things about them, you’re showing up, that’s a lot. But a lot of us want to go wide instead of going deep, and are wondering why we’re unsatisfied. 

So, ironically, you would think that I’d more concerned about introverts saying “I don’t know if I have fulfilling friendships”, because they’re like awkward and shy is the stereotype we put on them. I actually get more on high alert for extroverts, bragging about all the people they know, because it’s not possible to fill up 20 buckets, I mean, standing so close with 20 people, it’s just not because you have a limited amount of time and energy. And so, your tight, tight, tight circle, who would those people be? And get this – they argue that, you know, if you have room for five, that once you have a romantic partner, that person takes up two of the five spaces because of what’s required to invest in.

[57:52] Sahara

Do your parents count? Like a parent or a sibling? 

[57:55] Danielle

You know what, I would argue yes, because I know we’re saying, like, friends, but like, people who are the closest in your life, who you pour into. Now, here’s the thing, is, outside of that circle, the number is 10-15 of what we call ‘weak ties’, loose ties. So, people you’re maybe not super close with, but you enjoy them well enough, you guys hang out and they definitely offer value in your life, you need them too. Because I do hear people say like “You know what, I just need my one or two ride or dies and I’m good”, and I understand what they’re saying, but no, you need other people, kind of, like, fringe friends as well, that I refer to as, because they offer value as well. 

There’s research that shows that engaging with your fringe friends boosts your mood, like, talking to a girl, we’re not super close, but I really like her, that boosts my mood for the day. It’s also that, they found that, you’re more likely to find a new job opportunity through somebody in your fringe friends tier, because they also have their foot in a circle that’s different from you. So, me, and all my tight friends who probably run in the same circle, we know the same things, we have access to the same resources, but for somebody who’s not as close, who also, kind of, dips in other spaces, she has access, kind of, to another world that she brings into my life. So, she offers me a set of new things that my tight circle can’t because we’re so on the same wavelength. And so, that’s why they said they were so concerned about our friendships during the pandemic, because we lost a lot of our weak ties and we need them too. 

And so, when it comes to writing down your friends, I do encourage women, who are, like, your 3-5 women. You know, I often hear women say like “Gosh, I don’t even have that many”, the ones that say “I don’t even have 3-5”, well, put on the list women who you, intentionally, are curious about. Like, you like her, you’ve had some exchanges and you’d like to deepen things with her, put her on the list, and then put that to more visible. Because what’s going to happen is, you’re going to get so caught up in work and maintaining your Insta and do all the things, but you don’t feel close to anybody because you’re trying to be close to everybody and check off coffee with all these people and still feel like you’re not experiencing platonic intimacy with anybody. Well, it’s because you have a limited number of hours, you need to use them strategically.

So, yes, go to coffee with one of the fringe friends and have a good time, but you really need to prioritize your 3-5 if you want depth, instead of being so concerned with being networky with 40 people. I mean, it’s just numbers, it’s just math. 

I’ll wrap with this – friendship expert Shasta Nelson says that you need three things to have depth in your relationships – positivity, consistency and vulnerability, and you cannot do that with everyone, you just can’t.

And so, writing down those 5 women who you’re like “I want to be intentional about pursuing them, loving on them, asking what’s going on in your life, sharing myself with them, I want to be intentional about doing that”. She tells me she has a doctor’s appointment next week, I’m putting it in my calendar, to remind future me to ask her “Girl, how was your appointment?”, to leave an emotional impression on her, like “Wow, she remembered, she cares”, because I want to nurture a bond with you, because I know I can’t duplicate this, 10 or 20 times, you matter to me.

Now, if, over time, that circle changes, because it’s a little fluid, that’s okay, that’s to be expected, in fact, because research says that we replace half of our friends every 7 years. I know 7 has a very symbolic, you know, kind of, meaning, but you’re going to have a natural friendship pruning every now and then, as you grow in these cycles. I mean, it just makes sense that not everyone can come along for the ride. And so, that’s normal for your circle to change. But if you want to have more depth in your friendships, I think women should take your advice, write those women down, those names, put them somewhere you can see them, to remind you to be intentional about pursuing depth with women who add value in your life. It’s not just going to happen by serendipity, it happens because you were intentional. 

[1:01:55] Sahara

Positivity, consistency and vulnerability, those are the three things for depth, right? 

[1:02:00] Danielle

Uh-hum! And I like to say, what can be the tangible thing that you do to nurture each one of those, that’s an exercise video. So, positivity – no, we’re not saying toxic positivity and like “Oh, everything will work out”, but like, you know, there’s research that says successful relationships have a positivity to negativity ratio of 5:1, this was research conducted by the Gottman’s, okay. So, when I take an ariel view, like from a helicopter, and I look down at my friendships, how many of our interactions are full of us constantly complaining, venting, dumping, all the time! Now, yes, one benefit of friendship is “I can take my burdens to you and just run my mouth and pop off sometimes”, that’s a benefit, but if that is a whole of our relationship, I mean, it’s going to impact how close we feel to each other because I’m using you to just get all my stuff, my nasty stuff. So, 5:5, or 5:1, what’s your positivity ratio looking like and what’s the one thing you can do to win positivity with the ladies on the list (3-5), what can I do to have some positivity with her? 

The next thing is consistency, I have a full tie raid prepared on low maintenance friendship, I feel some kind of way, but how can you see somebody with regularity, to get a rhythm with them? And I know I’m going to see you or talk to you, I’d like to suggest here a friendship ritual, and it sounds kind of formal, but how can I get guaranteed time with you so I know I’m going to see you? Maybe we go trivia night once a month, maybe we have a check-in phone call every Friday, that’s our thing for 30 minutes, but consistency.

And finally, vulnerability. That doesn’t mean I’m dumping all my trauma on you at first time I met you, that’s not what we mean, but the best way I’ve heard vulnerability described is “I feel comfortable taking a risk, being rejected. There’s a chance I’ll be rejected here, but I’m going to say it anyway, I’m going to offer it anyway, I’m going to share it anyway. Can I do that here?”, because we do like people after they’re vulnerable with us, research shows, and it does bring us closer together. So, we can’t trust that with everybody, but who are those 3-5 that you can start offering a little more and more and more vulnerability to create depth in your friendship? 

So, when you see that it requires those three things, it shows you “Uh, I need to get intentional about who my 3-5 are that I’m going to do that with”. 

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[1:05:24] Sahara

That is such great advice! And I think, all of us right now are writing this down, if not yet, you’re probably writing down “Who are those friends in my life?”

And I think, sometimes, the new friends, the fringe friends, can feel like bright, shiny objects because you haven’t had conflict with them, you know. So, it’s like “You know what, I’m going to find these new friends”, and then new friends, new friends, and it, like, comes back to our point of navigating conflict because those people who are in your inner circle, there are going to be points of contention, you are going to see each other’s shadows, there are going to be tough conversations. And if you really want to have that depth, you need to be able to move through that.

[1:06:00] Danielle

A hundred percent! And there’s research that shows that, often times, the platonic intimacy you’re looking for is on the other side of a little tension, not a necessary tension, but how else do I learn that I can trust you, how else do I learn that we can problem-solve together, until we have these moments of tension that we work through? And now, on the other side, I’m like “Man, okay, I understand her better”, “Oh wow, I really see her now, I see her”, or “I have more respect for her because she worked through that with me”, “You know, she apologized, I have more respect”, or “She forgave me, I have more respect for her”. So, sometimes that closest little key word is on the other side of a little conflict resolution. 

[1:06:40] Sahara

And sometimes, too, the conflict does lead to the end of the friendship, you know.

[1:06:44] Danielle

That’s true too.

[1:06:46] Sahara

I’ve had that happen and then it’s just like, you just have to accept that truth and you can’t force someone to be your friend. And I think it’s really tough because that core wound for so many of us is that abandonment wound, of “If I speak my truth, I might be abandoned”, and sometimes that does happen, but that just means the friendship was not true to begin with, or at least things changed and now it’s no longer in alignment. 

[1:07:09] Danielle

Yeah. So, how were you able to move on after you had these separations with friends? 

[1:07:14] Sahara

Yeah. I think, for me, at the beginning it’s so hard because I tend to be more on the anxious side so I want to fix the problem, I want to talk about it, I want to get on the phone, I want to know how you’re feeling, like, that’s how I process things more. And this other friend was more on the opposite side, didn’t want to talk. So, for me, I’m like, that first week of, like, not talking, I’m writing a million notes that I want to send her and I’m like “Don’t send, honor her space, honor her space”, and then at the end of the one week, she decided that this friendship is, this was the same triage friendship, and she said that this friendship is no longer serving her and she was in a new relationship and she had moved and she was just in a different space of her life and the friendship felt like too much work for her because we were voice-noting a lot. And some people, you know, we were voice-noting each other every day, what was going on, what was happening, we were giving each other advice and she’s like “I can’t be in this container anymore”. So, it definitely felt like a break-up, you know, of like “I was rejected, why doesn’t this person love me?”, which makes me, you know, you go through all the emotions, like, you go through the anger, you go through the grief, you go through the sadness, especially, this was someone that was in my life very closely for 5 years, and then, eventually the acceptance. And you know, as you’re saying this, I’m like “Maybe I should try to rekindle it”, based off of what you shared, but yeah, how do you know when to be just like “You know what, that just served its time” vs. like “Oh, maybe we did, prematurely, end the friendship”?

[1:08:42] Danielle

Yeah. Oh, that’s a great question! I think the pandemic, especially, had a lot of us thinking back to friendships like “Oh my God, should I revive that?”

A couple things, you know, – one, if the friendship was toxic in any kind of way and you made the decision to end it because it was so dysfunctional, it’s going to be natural, sometimes, to miss a person who was so integrated into your life. But ask yourself, if you’re reaching out, because you miss them, because the two don’t necessarily go together. You can miss them because they were so important to you, but also say “I don’t think it’s good for me that I revive that and bring new life into that, we ended it for a reason”. So, you know, are you acting out of a sense of nostalgia or yearning for the past? That’s one thing to consider.

I think you should also consider how much time has passed because one very real possibility is that, the person you’re trying to reconnect with is not the same person you knew 7 years ago. We all know it, if you look back at 5-year ago, 7-year ago you, are you the same or have you shifted in some ways? So, the anticipation that you’ll be meeting or reuniting with old her, you know, it’s possible that it’s not her anymore. And if you have a reason for reviving it, I think, you know, you can reach out and say, with very clear purposes, what it is you want. I think a lot of time, we do reach out and we’re like “Hey, I was thinking of you, I thought I’d reach out”. And the other person on the receiving end is going to, inevitably, wonder “What do you want. Are you trying to say something to me? Do you want something from me?” 

So, if you do decide to rekindle, I think you need to think about the other person and be as clear as possible about your objective to remove any ambiguity. So, whether it’s “You know, I know it’s been a while, but I never got to say my piece and I need you to know that I felt *blank*. And if you respond, great, but I needed you to know that”. That’s one thing that you might need for closure. It might be because you do want to open it back up and you tell her “Hey, I’ve been thinking about you a lot, you’ve been on my mind, I wanted to check in and see if you’re well, you know, how you’re doing”, and be prepared for all the possibilities. 

So, I always say that if you don’t think that you’d be mentally or emotionally okay with all of the possibilities, maybe hold off, because it’s possible that she 1) does not respond to you – is that going to drive you nuts? 2) it’s possible that she does not respond to you kindly – can you handle it? And then 3) yeah, sure it’s possible that’s she’s like “Wow, I’ve actually been thinking of you too and I’d love to get together”. But if you don’t think you’re emotionally and mentally ready to absorb all those possibilities, then maybe hold off because you cannot control another person’s actions.

[1:11:07] Sahara

Yes! I love that point of that person, of how are they going to perceive you reaching out, of like “Hmm, this person texted me out of the blue, what do they want?”, you know, and being very clear with that. 

And yeah, I think, sometimes the saying your piece part, like, sometimes just write a letter and burn it, you know, it doesn’t need to be said to that person. And then, sometimes it does and it can be a huge clearing and we can only know that from each situation. So, thank you for sharing that.

And my last question for you is, how do we find new aligned friends? You know, even for myself, I moved to Miami less than 2 years ago, and I have a few friends here, but definitely not as much as in LA. And I think for a lot of us, we’re at home, we work from home, and especially if you have, like, certain interests you know. And you’re an entrepreneur, for example, it can be hard to just go to the mall and talk to anyone. So, what is your advice for finding friends?

[1:12:05] Danielle

Yeah. So, I’m going to give you a quick punch list of all the different ways. The first is, a very unsexy, but it’s to dig back in the friendship archives, because a lot of times we say “I want to make new friends”, and we use that synonymously with “I want to meet new people”, and the two are not the same. So, making friends, I always say, is, it refers to the art of cultivating something meaningful with another person. Who said that has to start from scratch? Oh, the time!

A lot of times, a lot of our friends, they serve other roles in our lives. So, maybe, also the woman we see weekly for our hair styling, maybe it’s also the barista we see, or a friend’s cousin who we see all the time, when we all get together. So, are there people in your life who you already know and you enjoy well enough, but you’ve written them off as a potential friend, for whatever reason? And what would possibly change about the landscape of your future together, if you started to entertain them as a possible friend? Would there be something there? So, maybe look at who’s already in your network, then reach back to people who you had one interaction with, and it went well, but you guys, like, never kept it going. If you’re confident that you both shared an enjoyment of your interaction together, to reach out and say “Oh, I saw this and I thought of you in that work out class together, and I just wanted to reach out and say I hope you’re well”, because we get busy. It’s very possible that they’re thinking of you too or that they’d love a chance to reconnect and were so relieved that you initiated it. So, start with who you already know, is the first thing.

The second thing is to integrate routine into your life. That doesn’t sound shiny, but you know, a lot of us, we stay in the house all day and maybe go to a big event and then come back home, and then it’s four more days till we go outside again. So, how can you include routine into your life? That’s why we feel like it was so much easier to make friends when we were younger, but it’s really because we had opportunities for consistency, we saw the same faces all the times. Well, now that you’re an adult, you’re going to have to manufacture those opportunities for yourself because you no longer have that social infrastructure. So “Can I commit to working from the same coffee shop every Friday morning?”, because we tend to be creatures of habit, so it’s likely that there are other people who are going to be there every Friday morning, and now they become what we call familiar strangers. They’re not totally strange to us, we kind of see them, I feel like we kind of give them a head not, “I see you every week”, and so, now, it becomes less intimidating to say hello or to ask you where you got your shoes or to borrow something from you like a laptop charger or whatever, because we see each other all the time here, become a regular. 

If you go to a dog park, can you do it, kind of, around the same time because the same people come after work with their dog, and now we’re building consistency. There’s research out of the University of Kansas that attempted to quantify how long it takes to make friends. They found that it takes 50 hours to make, kind of, like a really close associate, 90 hours to make a good friend and 200 hours to make a best friend. Now, sometimes people, like, lift eyebrows in suspicion like “Wait, 200 hours?”, so I think it varies from person to person. But the key takeaway is the same, if you’re trying to make friends, you’re going to have to invest time, you’re going to have to clock hours together. That’s why so many of us make friends at work, we’re together for 40 hours a week and then our work friends become our besties, you know. So, how can you manufacture that ourself? Become a regular somewhere, do things with consistency. 

If you go to some kind of book club meeting or some kind of entrepreneur, whatever, can you commit to going for 3 months? And if you hate it, then don’t go (or three times and then don’t go), but we go one time and we’re like “Hmm, I don’t know, I didn’t find my people here I don’t know, I’m not going back”, and so, you don’t have a chance to build any rapport with people there, you kind of went as a critic. You went to see if people come talk to you, you were on your phone half the time and then you’re like “Hmm, wasn’t feeling it”, but wait, if I commit to saying “I’m going to go every Thursday, for three weeks, before I quit on this”, now I have an opportunity to say to somebody “Oh yeah, you mentioned, last week, that your dog is sick, how are things going now?”, but I can build with you because I’m seeing you multiple times. That’s one way to make friends, it’s just consistency, it’s not sexy, but it works. 

Another is to talk to your super connector friends, these are people who love saying like “Oh my gosh, Danielle, you should meet my friend Tiffany, you guys would hit it off”, like those people. They don’t have to be your friend, but somebody you know who has that spirit. Why not text them or DM them and say something to the effect off “Hey, I’m trying to get connected and I thought of you because you’re always out and about, doing something cool, do you know of anything around town that you feel like is worth checking out?”, you won’t get your need met if you don’t make your need known. So, if you’re hiding your secret desire for friends to yourself because you feel shame around wanting friends, you feel like it makes you look desperate and clingy so you’re not going to tell anyone, how in the world do you expect to connect with people if you’re scared to initiate and you don’t want people to know? 

I mean, come on, every study we’re looking at, for the past couple of years shows that we’re lonelier than ever, most people. So, it’s likely that, if you’re in a room full of people, you’re not the only one who’s kind of desiring connections, they all are. So, yeah, there’s a risk you’re going to get rejected, but there’s an equal risk you’ll be accepted. 

And so, you have to put yourself out there, you have to believe you have something to offer and you have to just start by saying hello. I always say that friendship begins with rapport, and rapport begins with hello. But you’re not just going to fall on friends if you won’t go out there and connect with other people. And I think that might be the beginning mindset to positioning yourself to create meaningful connections.

[1:17:43] Sahara

Such great advice! And I know we’ve all been there, we’ve gone to an event, we’re like “I’m going to go make friends”, and then we feel like “Does everyone know each other already? They all seem to be talking, I don’t want to just, like, interrupt their conversations”, so then we end up just standing there, being on our phone, and then someone probably looking at us thinking the exact same thing “Oh, this person is on their phone, they’re busy, let me not go up to them”. And that’s why having spaces where people are just really – because every time I’ve been in a conversation, even if it was like, we were really in it and someone showed up, it’s always been welcome. Like, I’ve never felt like “Oh, why is this person here, it’s always been welcome, but for some reason we feel like “I’m going to interrupt their flow and be rejected” or whatever the story is. So, I think it’s so important to recognize, like, it always, even if you were in a conversation and a third person comes in, you just tell them “Hey, we were just talking about this”, and you bring them into the conversation, and sometimes the person, kind of, ends up more in the listening position, but sometimes they offer their feedback and you have an even more dynamic conversation.

So, I think that fear of just like “Oh, well, everyone’s busy or knows each other”, we need to just move through that.

And for me, a huge way of finding friends, throughout my life, has been through going to events. So, literally going to eventbrite.com and like searching different key words of things I was interested in at the time, whether it was ecstatic dance or shaman, or whatever else, and going to these events and just meeting people that I would’ve never met had I not gone to this event and been around people who are interested in that same thing. 

I’ve been in improv class right now and yes, it’s been like the highlight of my week, every single week, I am obsessed with it. And now this improv crew has become my friend, and these are people I would normally not have interactions at all, like, one guy is like an investment banker, another guy works at Wendy’s, it is the most random crew of people, but we all come together and we’re just laughing the whole time. And it feels so good to have these friends that we can send comedy skits to each other and we’re on this shared mission. 

So, I think having, going to an event and bonding over a shared interest is also such a great way of making friends. 

[1:19:50] Danielle

I love that for you and I so loved that you shared that because I hope there’s someone listening who are like “Wait, what?”, because it does seem so random but I love that you have the courage and intention to put yourself in a space where you can laugh, try something new, meet new people, is amazing!

And for women especially, the number one thing they found that is a predictor of platonic intimacy for women is laughter, so finding a woman who you can, like, laugh right off with the bat, you’re positioning yourself to be inclined to be super close to her. 

So, I think the improv, it might be a great idea because it kind of fast-tracks you to feel comfortable, laugher. I mean, there’s so much research on laughter, it’s so important. So, I love that you’re just having that experience, that’s amazing. Between the banker and the Wendy’s guy, it’s amazing!

[1:20:37] Sahara

Yeah! Because the reason why it came to be is because I noticed, in my friendships, it’s often like, you meet up for coffee, one person takes the turn of talking about all their problems, then the other person takes the turn talking about their problems, and you kind of leave feeling a little bit heavier. And especially for someone like me who’s an empath and a coach, then I’m like thinking about their problems, I’m trying to problem-solve for them, and I’m like, sure, sometimes you just need to talk about your shit and be heard, and that’s an important part of friendship, but I’m like “I also want to be creating things with my friends”. 

So, I just started to get people together and be like “We’re going to paint pumpkins and this is what we’re doing” or “We’re going to make gingerbread houses” or “We’re going to do improv skits”, and every time I would do improv skits, it would just bring the group together in such a beautiful way and connect us with our inner children, and we were all just laughing, and it made me connect with people in a way that just like talking about, like, what’s – reporting, I feel like so much of friendship is like “I’m going to report to you, you’re going to report to me”, rather than like playing, the way that we used to have play dates with people. 

So, I kept trying to get people together to do improv and I’m like “You know what, let me just sign up for improv class where, like, this is the intention of the people”, rather than me trying to turn people into my improv friends, and it has been a great decision.

[1:21:51] Danielle

Okay, that’s amazing! And I’ve heard a couple of people now talk about improv and I think they were clients…

[1:21:57] Sahara

You need to do it!

[1:21:58] Danielle

I’m going to do it, that’s so inspiring, I love it!

[1:22:00] Sahara

Any, like, comedy club where you live will probably have an improv class, but I just found it on eventbrite.com First, I went to an improv show and then at the show they said that they have classes and I was like – and at first I was like “Three hours a week, no way I can commit to this”, and you know, all my stories were coming up and now I’m like, I’m so grateful that I said yes to this because, not only just in friendships, but it’s allowed me to access a new side of myself, and I feel like, ultimately, that’s really what friendships are. You’re really getting that mirror back of who you are.

[1:22:30] Danielle

That’s so good! That’s like a mic drop! Yes, absolutely and everything you said, I love it! 

[1:22:34] Sahara

Yeah! And another thing too is, I’ve noticed, sometimes people are, like, waiting for someone to make the initiative, of like a group activity or something, like an arts project or a holiday thing, but for some people it comes more naturally to others. I will say, I tend to be just that person, maybe that’s my Capricorn in me, but every time I do it, everyone’s like “Thank you for just taking the initiative, for putting it together”, and I think we’re all just waiting for those moments that you see on TikTok, you’re like “Wow, friends do that together! I wish my friends did that”, and it’s like, be the friend who organizes it because that’s the only way you’re going to make it happen in your life.

[1:23:11] Danielle

That’s so good! You know, I was actually thinking about that this morning, you know. I’m a former high school teacher and I taught 17 and 18-year-olds, and so, it’s funny because sometimes people ask me like “Oh, do you find that women, you know, are like high schoolers and the drama?”, and I’m like, you know what, you know the one way I found that adults are just like high schoolers is, we’re scared, that’s how we’re like children, we’re still scared of putting ourselves out there, asking for help, telling somebody we like them, we’re still terrified. And you know, there’s just so much to be said about initiating.

You know, there’s research that says that we tend to underestimate how much people appreciate us reaching out to them. There’s another research study that says we tend to underestimate how much people like us in the first interaction, it’s called the liking gap. So, when we meet someone and we don’t want to initiate after, we’re like “Oh, I probably talked too much, she probably…”, and she walked away liking you just fine. So, really, look at your assumptions of other people. I always ask clients “Who told you that? You told you that”, so, who told you she’s probably too busy, she probably thinks I’m a little weird, she probably…you told you that. And so, is there a chance that she is busy? Sure. But there’s an equal chance that she’s like “Man, I’m so glad you reached out”.

And when it comes to initiating, I’ll say this, two things. One, it has to be a part of your identity. So, instead of saying “Man, I really want to reach out to this girl, but what if she says no? what if she…?”, that’s rooted in her reaction, it’s very reactionary. Instead tell yourself “Time out, I’m a connector, that’s who I am, I really value connecting with other people, that’s me”. And that way, when you initiate, it’s an extension of who you are, it’s not a performance you’re doing, this is who you are. You wave first at people, you pick up the phone and say “Hey, do you want to get wine tonight?”, that’s who you are, as opposed to “It feels weird trying that on, I don’t know if I’m that person, I don’t know if I can do this”. No, if you value connection, what behaviors are you doing that are an extension of your beliefs and your values? And you just go for it.

And the last thing I’ll say is, you will not just initiate the beginning of a friendship. To keep a friendship going, initiative maintains it, you will always be having to say “Do you want to get together next week?” You might always have to initiate being the first to be a little open when you get together for coffee and you want to share something personal, but you’re the first to go, you know. 

So, the best friendships are made up of initiating. So, don’t start your friendship journey by waiting for others to come to you, there’s a little bit of that that’s a little arrogant to think that you should show up in a room and people are going to claim it to you. If I’m being honest, okay, you have a part to play too, and if you want to create and maintain better friendships with women, you better get comfortable with going first, because that might be exactly what you need to start enjoying the friendships that you deserve.

[1:26:11] Sahara

So good! I loved all of this! This was one of my favorite conversations ever! This had just so much wisdom and I’m sure people are taking notes. And if not, relisten to this and take some notes and bookmark it for life, because we’ve literally gone through every situation, pretty much, that friends can move through.

So, thank you, just for your responses and, like, how well thought out and innovative and fresh they are. Like, I just love listening to you talk and I love having this kind of conversation because I think it’s so needed and we often just negate friendships and think “Oh, that should just be the easy part of my life”, and we don’t recognize that like anything else, like your health, like your relationships, like you career, it also requires work and effort and diving into.

So, thank you for stepping into your dharma, your soul’s purpose of being a friendship coach and making this accessible for more people. And I know you have a book coming out too, so can you tell us about that and what you’re working on?

[1:27:08] Danielle

Yeah, yeah. So, I have a book coming out, it’s not until 2024, my editors just told me, I was like “Wow, my dad is going to be 77”.

[1:27:14] Sahara

They wait so long, it’s like…

[1:27:17] Danielle

I’m learning, I’m learning, yeah! So, the book is tentatively titled “Fighting For Our Friendships: The Art and Function of Conflict in Female Friendship”, and my goal with the book is, not just to tell you “This situation happens, do this”, “If this happens, do this”, even though there’s going to be a lot of that on there, a whole guide to the top 14 conflicts I’ve seen between women. But I want to answer why does that keep happening, why do I feel like she betrayed me, why do I feel like I bond with this happening and I need this to feel connected to somebody, why? So, I’m not just telling you what to say in certain situations, but I want to explain to you how the whole operation works, the mechanics of female friendships so it can inform how you engage with other women.

So, I’m so excited about it, I hope that it’s helpful. I learned so much, I’ve been humbled in doing research, my friendships are better, surprisingly, my marriage is better since I started doing this work, because I’ve noticed that friendship is at the heart of romantic relationships, you have to be my friend, you know. And so, I’m just, I’m a better person for it, I’m so honored to have women trust me with some of the most personal, intimate, you know, women issues, it’s just such a blessing and I’m honored to do this work. 

And so, you know, everything lives at betterfemalefriendships.com but I’m so grateful to you for carving out space to have this conversation.

[1:28:40] Sahara

Well, thank you, again, we will link to your website below. I know you do different coaching with people; I think this is such an important area to really dive into. So, thank you again, for really focusing on it. And your TikTok is amazing, so everyone, go find her on TikTok, I will share that link below as well! 

[1:28:55] Danielle

Thank you so much for having me! 

[1:28:57] End of Interview

__________________________________________________________________ 

[1:28:58] Sahara

I am obsessed with that conversation! I actually went on for another hour, just talking to her off the air because it was so good! And it’s so needed to have conversations about female friendships because it’s like water, you know, without them you feel dehydrated, you feel parched, but sometimes that water got muck in it, and you’re drinking it and you’re wondering why you’re not feeling more hydrated, and it’s because that water got muck and you had to filter it for the water to actually be genuinely hydrating. And it’s the same thing with female friendships, you might have friends in your life, but they’re not really nourishing your soul, so you’re like “How come I’m spending time with these people but I feel worse after?” and that just means that that friendship is either not in alignment for you or there’s work to do there. 

[1:29:43] Sahara

It’s like, imagine you let your relationship every time things got hard, you would never make it to the most beautiful parts of your relationship. And I agree with Danielle, that sometimes we do, prematurely, throw friendships away when it could’ve just taken more deepening in that moment. And sometimes we hold onto friendships too long when that was us ten versions of ourselves ago and there’s so many nuances there.

[1:30:03] Sahara

So, that’s why I created Rose Gold Goddesses, my Sacred Feminine Mystery School. We have 1000 members who are all here for the joyful divine feminine approach to spirituality. It’s all about the heart, we have a community, support circles, weekly workshops, monthly Goddess circles and so much more. 

So, if you’re interested and curious, I’ll put the wait-list for that beneath, and that’s such a powerful way to make friends.

We also have an annual retreat that you can go on, and in that annual retreat, we all get to meet each other in person, be in circle, really talk and share, and it’s so deeply beautiful. So, be sure to head over to the show notes below to check that out, and I’m so grateful for you to be here.

[1:30:43] Sahara

And if you love this Episode, I would love for you to leave a review, and as a free gift, I will send you my Womb Meditation. So, this is a meditation for you to connect to your sacred womb space, to hear her answers, because the feminine approach to spirituality is about connecting into the body and not leaving the body and being in the mind. 

So, you can leave a review over on the iTunes Store, take a screenshot of it and email it over to me at [email protected] and you can find that link also in the show notes, and I’ll email you my free Womb Meditation.

[1:31:17] Sahara

Thank you so much for tuning in, please be sure to subscribe, and I’ll see you on the next one! 

Namaste!                                    

Episode #467: Let’s Get Real About Navigating Female Friendships As An Adult with Danielle Bayard Johnson
By Sahara Rose