Highest Self Podcast 507: The Secrets To Steaming Hot Polarity In Relationships with Oren Harris


In this Highest Self Podcast episode with Oren Harris, we are having a super honest conversation where I channel from the sacred feminine, and Oren channels the sacred masculine.

We explore polarity in relationships, trusting and surrendering in a relationship, becoming your God Self, experimenting in your sexuality through embodiment/roleplay, rebalancing the masculine and feminine, utilizing truth to catalyze change and tap into desire, how to actually activate your passion, the power of self-love + compassion when communicating, recognizing patterns, navigating infidelity, and the list goes on!

This episode is a very open and honest conversation that will open your eyes to many truths that you (and your partner/future partners) may deeply benefit from. We no longer live in a world where our relationships need to fit in a one-size fits all approach and it’s up to us to define and create the relationships that serve our greatest truth and expansion.

I hope this episode plants a seed for you as it did for me.

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Intro + Outro Music: Silent Ganges by Maneesh de Moor

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Episode #507: The Secrets To Steaming Hot Polarity In Relationships with Oren Harris
By Sahara Rose

[00:00] Sahara

For me, now, being single, I’m like “Oh, I’m a love devotee”, like, the purpose of my life is love, whereas in my marriage, I actually never used those terminologies, I never felt that because, now, I’m tuned into the actual spirit of love, which is far beyond relationship, marriage or any form of institution.

[00:19] Oren

A hundred percent! I think that the institutions and the relationship constructs, and the marriage, and all the things we do, aren’t they all, on some level, designed to try to get us to love? So, it’s like, why not start with love, or like I said, don’t try to contain love, let love contain you.

[00:40] Sahara

And let go of attachment.

[00:42] Oren

Yeah, let go of attachment, you know, which, attachment comes from disconnection and separation, you know, from love, or from – like, when we know that we contain that which we’re seeking, like, in essence, then it doesn’t make sense to be attached to something.


[01:16] Sahara

Hi! I’m Sahara Rose and this is The Highest Self Podcast, a place where we discuss what makes you, your soul’s highest evolvement. 

[01:22] Sahara

I love bringing my personal friends, and conversations I’m having in my real life, on this Podcast. And not too long ago, I was at this beautiful event, and we ended up at a friend’s gorgeous mountain home, where, of course, we dropped into consciousness on what is sex, love, relationships and life, which is just casual conversation in my life here. 

And you know, for me, being on this journey of really understanding what is love, that is the question I have been sitting with this year. And I feel it’s the purpose of why we’re here, to be living embodiments of love. And I’ve noticed in my life, and the the lives of many people, relationships are the things that people struggle with the most. It’s a thing that we want and the thing that sometimes feels the hardest, not just to get, but to maintain and to continue to flourish in the way that we want. 

[02:09] Sahara

So, this beautiful king just dropped in! It was his house and he just starts, like, channeling freaking Source, I felt like I was at Agape or something, and I was like “Oh shit, okay, we need to continue this conversation on the Podcast!

[02:23] Sahara

And you know, personally, I have – being single now, for the first time after 7 years, I have really been sitting with, you know, wanting this beautiful, conscious relationship. And to me, it’s someone that I see as, like, my God-man in human form, but sometimes it’s hard, especially for those of us that are, like “Yeah, I’d love to surrender to the masculine, but I can’t find someone that I feel safe enough to. Who can I trust, especially when there’s wounds of betrayal and things like that in the past?”. So, we’re going to be diving into this, it’s going to be an honest conversation, I’m going to be, not only speaking for myself, but channeling a lot of the feminine in a lot of these conversations that I’ve been having. So, he’s going to be channeling the sacred masculine, and also just sharing our personal experiences.

[03:08] Sahara

So, he is a coach, a speaker, a soul who also loves to dance as much as I do! And let’s welcome Oren, to The Highest Self Podcast.

[03:16] Oren

Thank you for having me, I’m excited to be here with you!

[03:18] Sahara

Excited to see where this conversation leads us.

[03:21] Oren

Me too!

[03:22] Sahara

So, the first question I’d love to ask you is, what makes you your highest self?

[03:25] Oren

I feel my highest self when my heart is open and I’m my shine. So, when my heart is open, I’m allowing love to flow through me, to flow as me, and when my heart is open, I’m also naturally connected to my spirit, to my soul, and that’s the shine.

I also feel like my highest self when I’m in my innocence and connected to my true self, beyond conditioning, beyond labels, beyond ideas, should, shouldn’ts, blah blah blah. Just that simple state of being, that’s when I feel like my highest self. 

[04:04] Sahara

If I’ve learned anything this year, it’s just “How much more can I feel? How much more can I open my heart?”, and, like, that’s really what we’re here, just to feel more alive. 

[04:14] Oren

Yes! Yes! Feeling is almost like a lost art, in a way. And I think that – well, let me be clear – feeling without attaching a narrative, or a story, or something to, like, just purely feeling is almost like a lost art. And I would say it’s like a superpower.

[04:40] Sahara

So true, because then, yeah, we instantly go into “Why do I feel like this, is it because of this?”, and, like, the cycle analyzation, which, you know – I mean, I do all forms of personal development but I recently went to this like, kind of, like, more like a therapist and I left feeling sort of, like, off, and I was like, I feel like this isn’t serving me anymore, to just, like, talk about the thing that happened, because it’s just getting you back into the trauma and repeating it. And I just feel like this new paradigm is about feeling it without the labeling and the story, so we can co-create the new reality and the new embodiment that we desire.

[05:12] Oren

A hundred percent!

[05:13] Sahara

So, okay, last time I saw you, we were at your house, dropping in and I’m like “How can we…?”

[05190] Oren


[05:21] Sahara

Fireplace, ten people around us, we’re going into rabbit holes.

[05:24] Oren


[05:26] Sahara

Okay, so, I’m going to just channel the feminine of what I feel and what so many women feel.

So, I read these books like David Data “Dear Lover”, which I love, it’s like fucking porn for me, it’s like “Ah, surrender to the masculine who takes you to God”, and I’m just like “Yes, I want that, I want that”, but I’m like “I don’t see him anywhere”. 

And I think a lot of us women, we so deeply, we want to surrender, and then we have experiences or hear stories, or friends’ experiences, of, you know, women who haven’t been able to trust, women who haven’t been able to surrender, and then we question “Is it my wishful thinking, is it my inner maiden, that thinks there’s going to be this man who can take me to God, but I just have to focus on healing and loving myself? And are those even separate things?” So, let’s dive in!

[06:16] Oren

Just chewing it right into the sauce.

[06:19] Sahara

I brought the sauce!

[06:21] Oren

Well, the first thing I’ll say is that, I get the idea of a man taking you to God, and fundamentally, for that to…hmm…God takes you to God. Now, God can flow through a man, and in that sense, a man can take you to God. But I think, at the depth of that desire, of that real, juicy, relevant, perfectly fine desire to experience a man taking you to God, there’s nothing wrong with that, that’s, like, the dream, right?

But I think what’s off about that, is missing the essence of that, which is our desire for God to come into us, penetrate us, permeate us, like, that is at the core of that desire. And it’s like being ravished, right, which is also another, kind of, thing that, I think, the feminine, naturally, gravitates toward those desires.

[07:24] Sahara

How would you describe ravishment?

[07:28] Oren

From a masculine perspective?

[07:29] Sahara

Yeah. Because I feel like a lot of people talk, it’s like “I want to be ravished”, it’s like, what is that?

[07:36] Oren

That, and you know, that’s a great place to start, like, if you really want to be ravished, is to actually connect with what does that even mean, right? That way, it takes it from this mental idea and generating this, kind of, energy around the idea, without actually feeling what does that actually mean, right, to be ravished, or to ravish.

In my experience, I’ll just say my own personal experience, and maybe I can channel, like, the masculine in general. I feel like, this is almost ironic, or it’s unfolded in ways that feel ironic to me, is that, if I’m focused on trying to ravish my woman, right, as an intention, as a desire, as a vision, like “This is the goal, I want to ravish my woman”, I have desire towards that, she’s like “I want it”, I’m like “I want it too”. Interestingly enough, that peak, the peak of my power, and it being able to flow through me, and to execute, and to deliver the ravishment, comes at its highest peak when I’m absent of the self that’s trying to ravish.

And so, there’s an interesting phenomenon there that, like, I can ravish my woman, based on my knowledge, and experience, and my wisdom, and my know-how, and kind of, like, you know, if I touch here, it does this, if I do this, it…and there’s levels of pleasure and power that can exist in that way. But I think, again, in essence, when we tune into the energy of ravishment, in its pure sense of the awakened masculine, it’s God, which means that we have to vacate the space, or be a space, for God to flow through us, to channel that level of penetration and that level of power. Yes, it might come down through my unique soul, right, and then down, into, kind of, my persona and how I might be expressing, uniquely expressing that, but ultimately, it’s an energy pouring through Source. 

And so, when women crave that, they’re also craving God, right, and for God to flow through a man, that requires that we be a space for that. So, all of our ideas have to be let go off, any associations with our value or our worth on being a good ravisher or bad ravisher, all of these things, as they dissolve, they actually open up more space to be the champion ravisher. 

And so, in a way, like, the stronger the desire there is for it, we can channel that energy of will, but will is at its highest potency when we’re in a state of surrender.

[10:29] Sahara

Yeah. What you said about, like, kind of, the performance anxiety, and how even, like, ravishment that comes, because I think that’s where a lot of couples get confused, right, like, I can speak on a feminine-leaning woman, and again, I don’t know everything with queer relationships and how these dynamics work, so we’re kind of just speaking about it in this heteronormative way, and there’s many different forms of this. But for a feminine woman, I feel it’s, yeah, this desire to be filled with something. Like, to be filled with something that will take you places that you can’t go on your own, and to have a man that’s so, just, like, focused on you, and all energy and attention to you, and, like, praying to God through you, and this, like, transcendental experience allows you to feel like the temple, the Goddess, like, the place where the man worships. 

And I feel like so many women, yeah, desire that, like, deep honoring, and being seen, and being moved through, especially because we have this void within us, our womb space that, you know, has this desire to be filled. But then, then if we tell a man we want this, and that could create that performance anxiety, so it’s like…so, what do we do?

[11:48] Oren

A hundred percent, that is, right? It’s not the, like, the telling, like that. The intention might be pure, it’s like “Oh, maybe if I give you some instruction, give you some tips, give you a little encouragement, then that’s a good thing”, it’s where it’s coming from, right? And that’s, yeah, generally speaking, like, being told what to do, if anything, I don’t think it connects a man more to God. It definitely does not promote more trust. 

And I think, at the core, this is another element of, you know, being able to ravish, or allow Source energy to move through us in that, kind of, uninhibited way, but highly intelligent, right, that’s the other fear hidden in there, the fear of power. It’s like “If I let myself go completely, and surrender, and allow this leveled energy to flow through me, what if I mess up, what if I do something wrong, what if I create pain?”, and these are all the fears that then have the self, our human self, trying to ravish. And not to say that we can’t, right, but that’s what comes in. But I was going somewhere with that.

[12:56] Sahara

And on that, I know a lot of women, they, like, tell their partners “I want you to just, like, ravish me, and this”, but the men are afraid.

[13:04] Oren


[13:04] Sahara

Because you have been trained to be gentle and this, and then women are like “No, I want you to be, like, aggressive with me, and be like…”, they’re confused.

[13:10] Oren

Yes! Exactly!

[13:12] Sahara


[13:13] Oren

Exactly. Be aggressive, but don’t do this; be this way, but don’t do it that way; be this way, but don’t…

[13:21] Sahara

We’re confused too, I’m just going to be honest.

[13:23] Oren

What that does in our being, and this will come back to the ingredient that I was going to mention, that I just remembered. What that does in our being is, it puts this into our head, it puts us into human consciousness, just meaning the limited construct of all the data that we’ve gathered in our brain (which can be useful), knowledge, wisdom, the past, “I know when I touched this this way, it went this way before, when I did this…”, it makes us calculative. And when we’re calculative, we literally squeeze God out. So, even though we can still generate power and generate energy, and this gives our version of ravishing, it’s mediocre at best. So, what’s required is, actually, probably scary for most men, and it is complete trust. Trust, that’s an essential ingredient to be able to allow to trust, right? And when a man is being told what to do, which is different than encouraged, if there’s inspiration coming through, then it’s coming through inspiration, but when a man’s being told what to do, especially if that instruction or that request contains also “And don’t do this”, then it’s almost like, energetically, he’s being invited into a state of control, especially if the invitation has control in it. And, but that control is like the anti-ravishment, right? And control is coming from love, it’s a desire to be in honor, it’s a desire to express love, like, that’s why we control, but it’s still coming from fear. And I’m not trying to oversimplify this, but it is actually quite simple, I’m not say that it’s easy, but it requires a level of trust to completely let go, to allow the peak of our energy, the actual divine masculine to pour through us, uncontained.

And I see, including myself, I see a lot of men being challenged with trust. And there’s a lot of, like, in a way, you – this isn’t like a literal way to say this, but in a way, to get into a place of trust that’s transcendent, and trust your heart, and therefore, be able to trust Source energy, you almost have to not give a…

[15:48] Sahara

Oh, we fucking swear here.

[15:50] Oren

Yeah, you almost have to not give a fuck, to be able to give a fuck on that level. 

[15:54] Sahara


[15:55] Oren

And when I say give a fuck, in the purest sense, it just means care, it means honor, it means respect. But see, our hearts, in the field of love that we are, is intelligent enough to be able to execute that. But that’s the fear, is that, if we let go of our control mechanisms, that will be less intelligent, less capable, and we might cause pain.

And so, a man will be trusted, in a sense, to the depth of his ability to penetrate his own heart and his own feminine, to the depth of his willingness to be in integrity with his own spirit, in his own inner code, right? It’s all of these more transcendent energies that create the roots of trust that then have, even subconsciously, in the relationship field, have it feel, to the woman, in her heart and in her body, trust, like, she can relax.

So, there’s a lot of potential, there’s a lot of distortion around this idea of trust, and it’s well meaning. But if you’re trying to be trustworthy, you’re already not trustworthy, because if you’re trying, you’re in energy of carefulness, which means you’re still operating in fear.

[17:11] Sahara


[17:12] Oren

So, anyway, that was a mouthful, but like…

[17:16] Sahara

Well, it really sounds like it’s twofold, it’s his devotion to his trust.

[17:20] Oren


[17:21] Sahara

His devotion to God, so, one question I have, which I want to ask after my second question, is, can a man even take us to God, who’s not connected to God himself, which, I kind of, think we both know the answer to that.

[17:35] Oren

Yeah, probably not.

[17:36] Sahara

Probably not, he can’t take you places he can’t go himself. But then also, as the feminine, who, a lot of women have partnered with men who aren’t deep in their spiritual practice and they’re like “So, do I need to give up on this desire?”, it’s like, can you find the God in the man?

[17:52] Oren

I think you can find that if you have a devotion to finding God within yourself. And I don’t mean like “God, where you at, God?”, but, like, literally, like, you don’t have to search for God, the same way you don’t have to search for love. It’s like Rumi said, it’s our defenses, we build up against it, that block of our awareness, and allowing of that which we call God. And so, as we surrender to God, or, like my boo says “You make love to god”, then you are surrendering to the ultimate divine masculine itself, God, Source, Energy, right? And in that state of receiving, in that state of being, that’s, I mean, this isn’t a formula, but that’s one way to describe that how you can manifest that through a man, you know, a man who has that devotion within himself, for himself, transcendent of the woman and the world, right? That’s a man rooted in God, or at least devoted to God, right. So, I think a woman’s devotion to the masculine within and, you know, being willing to submit to surrender to allow that energy to penetrate her, would be, loosely stated, a way to then manifest, because then, now you’re not seeking, you’re not trying to create it, you’re not trying to manipulate, or control, or under some idea that you’re going to be the one to, like, create that or to facilitate that. 

[19:29] Sahara

Yeah. What I hear from a lot of women is that, they carry deep resentment towards their partners, and that resentment is not allowing them to surrender because they’re angry, “He did this”, you know, years of relationship can build years of resentment.

So, do you think that one could, like, sexually, have this dynamic when there still are maybe, like, underlying issues in the relationship, or no, because the sex is just going to be a reflection of the relationship?

[19:57] Oren

I think it’s possible, but probably lean more towards the miraculous end, you know what I mean? Because anything, at any moment, can penetrate one so deeply that they collapse back into their innocence and open-heartedness. I would say that that’s probably extremely rare.

And so, I’m leaning towards it’s not impossible, but definitely, probably not probable, you know what I mean? Because whatever is in the field itself, is in the field, you know what I mean? Even if it’s dormant or not activated in the moment, if it’s in the field, it can be a potential obstruction, you know. But if one’s in a state of surrender, then that, in theory, could come up and you could make love to it, you know. That’s possible, in which case this energy we’re talking about, can continue to flow, and amplify, and grow, and grow. So, that’s possible. It’s not linear, is what I’m saying, but…

[21:01] Sahara

Yes, and I think that that’s where, sometimes, like, playing and things like that can get involved, where you don’t have to, like, bring your marriage’s issues into the bedroom, but like, try something new that, you know, maybe, yeah, channel the rage in the sex even, potentially, and you know…

[21:17] Oren

Oh yeah.

[21:18] Sahara

…bring that in.

[21:19] Oren

We’ve made love, we make love to everything, you know, anything that arises. Like, physically, in the act of making love, but like, making like, because, like, when you’re making love and something arises and you don’t use your power or your energy to fix it, change it, move it, judge it, right, then, in that state of openness, then love can actually pour into it, right?

[21:46] Sahara


[21:47] Oren

And love is needed, you know, in some ways, even better than having an intellectual dialogue about it.

[21:56] Sahara

Yes, because then your rage can be fucked open.

[22:00] Oren


[22:01] Sahara

Because you can see the core of what’s under there.

[22:03] Oren

That’s a real thing, yeah.

[22:04] Sahara


[22:04] Oren

Yeah, a hundred percent. 

[22:05] Sahara

And I think, for so many of us women, you know, we have seen mothers and grandmothers who were not in their power, so this generation has been really about stepping into your power, leadership, entrepreneurship, which has been very helpful and has given women a lot more freedom and options, and it’s put a lot of us in the masculine role in our relationships. 

[22:26] Oren


[22:26] Sahara  

You know, a lot of women are out-earning men, and just, you know, making decisions. Especially mothers, they’re often having to make a lot of decisions on a daily basis, so it feels almost like unnatural in the dynamic to then, like, fall into this surrendered state. 

So, what advice do you have for a woman that feels like she’s holding more of the masculine polarity in the relationship but doesn’t want to be?

[22:49] Oren

I was just thinking about this yesterday. Well, one, surrender, you could say surrender to the desire. So, if she’s holding more of the masculine pole and she doesn’t want to be, it means she wants something else, she wants to be more in her feminine. And I think that’s a good step one, is to surrender to that desire. And by surrender, I mean, take the wait, stop waiting to receive your desire. This is how our ego minds facilitate or create what we want, it’s like “Okay, well, once the man comes, and I don’t have to, then I will surrender and be more in my feminine”, but that’s kind of a flawed premise there. If you look at the energetics of it, it’s like, basically setting a rule that this is what it implies, even if it’s not spoken, it’s that “I will not allow myself to be more in my feminine, as my own desire, only, I will allow the end relationship to my own desire, which is to be with a more masculine man”.

It’s the same thing I was saying about being ravished by a man, being ravished by God, and understanding, you know, owning the full desire for your essence to connect more with God, helps you to, then, fully receive your desire for that to happen with a man. It’s the same thing with the feminine.

I think, sometimes, consciously or unconsciously, it gets turned into this negotiation with your own desire because if your feminine is wanting to come out more, but you’ve made that contingent upon the man, then it’s very difficult to not be looking, and observing, and waiting, and seeing “Okay, is this presence of masculine energy here, to allow me, or to give me permission to do this?”, does that make sense?

[24:44] Sahara

Yes. So, what I’m hearing is, we can’t wait for the man to, like, out-masculine us, you know, but we have to drop, we have to, first, admit to ourselves that we want to be more feminine…

[24:55] Oren


[24:56] Sahara

…and then…

[24:57] Oren

Because the waiting is resistance, it’s creating time and it’s – and it might even be creating a belief, which is really a stopper, a belief like “Well, I can’t, unless…”, right? Because, put it this way, if your feminine is wanting to come online more, and let’s say you are in relationship and you want your man to be more masculine, and you’re holding more of the masculine pole, and you’re in a moment, and in that moment, your true heart’s desire is to be in a state of receptivity, in your feminine and receiving, but your man’s not in the masculine, then that’s the moment where this negotiation happens. And I’m not saying that being in the masculine (the woman being in the masculine) is a bad thing, I’m just saying that if we form this belief or resistance to our own desire in that moment, or “I’ll only relax into my feminine if he shows up in his masculine”, that, how it feels to me, is like a state of control. It’s like you’re negotiating with your feminine, you know, does that make sense?

[26:01] Sahara

What if the dynamic, now, for a very long time, has been the pattern of the woman, like, mothering the man, that’s she’s just like “We’re in this dance, I don’t know how to change it”.

[26:10] Oren

But mothering is not truth, right? So, which means there’s still a disconnect in the woman. And it’s like, I would say getting to the truth of things is where things can change, you know, like, what is actually happening. And it’s easy to say on the surface, like “Oh, I want to be more in my feminine, but he’s not in his masculine, so, kind of, this is just the dynamic”. But usually, if you look deeper, there’s a deeper truth of like, okay, what’s truth for a man and, like, is he wanting to be more in his masculine and what’s actually happening inside the woman? Other than the obvious surface desire of, like, not surface, but desire of like “Hey, I want you to be in your masculine”. 

When I’ve worked with people on this, individually, or together, there’s almost always a disconnect from the truth of what’s actually happening here vs. just looking at the manifestation, like “Right now, he’s not in his masculine, so I have to be”, is that what’s actually happening? 

So, I think that the getting to the truth and the intimacy, if this were an inquiry, or an investigation, and getting to the heart of it, both for a man, if he’s like “Oh yeah, you want more of that from me? I do too”, if there’s an alignment there, right, and bringing love in, which then allows you to illuminate and see, like, what’s true, what’s true here, like, what is keeping the masculine energy from arising more in the man. 

And I think that, if a man’s in judgment, you know, or in fear, and then, if a woman really, really wants that, then they’re both in resistance, and so, then it becomes very difficult to see what’s actually happening here. So, then, it might just be, like, you know, for a man it might be like “Man, I should be more in my masculine”, which is a sure recipe to not be more in your masculine. Does that make sense, what I’m saying”, Like, to get to the truth rather than be like, look at it so, kind of, like “Oh, I’m in my masculine, you’re not”, and kind of just look at it on that level, like, what’s…

[28:21] Sahara

Yeah, having the conversation, first, and even seeing does the man want to be more in his masculine, first of all. And I think a lot of men would say “Yes, I do”, but we have these distortion ideas of what that even means.

[28:32] Oren

Right, exactly. And the truth will penetrate that, the intimacy will penetrate that, the vulnerability – and you almost have to put the goal aside, for a second, to even get to that level. Because if you make it such a highlight, especially if you have history around it and it’s been illuminated and spoken about, and it becomes a thing, then, that’s what I’ve seen has been difficult to get to, like, what is it. Even for a man, especially, a man who is in his masculine brain, you know, and in the doer, right, trying to understand the formula and become more masculine, may not understand, or know the value of, or know that he even needs to get to his own heart, instead of being in the “Well, this is what it looks like to be more masculine and I just need to work towards that”, right? If you try to get to the truth or to the point of power, to the manifestation, and you bypass what’s going on in your heart, then even if you have the codes, you can’t execute them. And if you execute them, it’s not sustainable, if the heart does not open and relax. 

[29:44] Sahara

So, how can women – let’s say a woman, you know, she has kids and the husband is, kind of, just doing the bare minimum, getting by, they’re not having sex, and she’s desiring to be held and to have this like, masculine, like leadership in the house, and this ravishment, but it just feels like those days are so far behind. And maybe the man doesn’t even understand, like, the nuances of the feminine and the masculine. How can a woman bring this up? Is this a conversation for her to bring up? Should she just focus more on, like, polarity practices and being in her feminine? Like, what can she actually do?

[30:19] Oren

I would say both, you know what I mean, like, complement any practices, with also penetrating the heart, because the heart has the ability to transcend communication barriers because it’s the essence of communication. And I think that that – and when I say heart, it could be, like, if a woman wants her man to be more present, for example, and she is only focused on, like, the result and just saying “Well, this is what I want and this is what you’re not doing, this is what I want you to do”, that’s one level. Take it a level deeper, expressing the same thing from the heart might look like – it’s like, when you’re in a state of vulnerability, and you’re more truthful about how you’re feeling about what you’re saying, then the communication becomes more powerful and you have more of an opportunity to create, or develop, or cultivate whatever it is that you’re trying to cultivate.

And so, I think where it becomes complex, for women, is if – sometimes, unbeknown to them, they’re actually in their head, their feelings, so like “I’m in my feelings”, but they’re actually in their head and they’re still feeling. And so, there’s very little power to communicate, especially if a man is, like, closed and he’s not present, so, you could be like “Hey, be more present”, and he could agree, or disagree, or try to, like, try to be more present. But when you’re in your heart, you know, then maybe the communication – it’s not even the words, it’s the energy. It’s like “I see you”, like “What does your heart need right now?”, you see, because not being present is a side effect, otherwise, if the man is in his masculine and he’s not present, and he hears “Hey, be more present”, and “Let me just grind and try to be more present, so then I’ll be a better man”, it doesn’t work, you see what I’m saying? 

And so, and the man in that example might not even know how to get in touch with his own heart. That’s why, if the woman is in her heart, then the vibration, the resonance, of the heart field has the ability to activate the heart field in another person. And there’s an energetic clarity when you’re speaking from your heart. It doesn’t matter if you’re spitting fire, if it’s coming through the heart, it’s like, it clears through the distortion. And that’s why, you know, for example, if a woman says “My man’s not that present”, and she’s like “I’m trying to encourage him”, and if she’s not honest and vulnerable in saying “I feel unsafe when you’re not present”, and that’s kind of hidden over here, and then it looks like “Hey, I’m just offering good advice you because I care about you”, then how it comes across, energetically, it’s like the head meeting the head, right?

[33:05] Sahara

Yeah. I agree with everything you say, and I feel like, as women, sometimes we feel like our subtle cues are not picked up on, so we need to be so explicit with what we want, of like “I need you to be more present with me, I need you to, you know, when you come home, drop what you’re doing, and this and that”, because we hear that men need to be told things explicitly, but then it’s like…

[33:28] Oren

Hold on, let’s pause on that. It’s not true though.

[33:31] Sahara

I don’t know, is it? 

[33:33] Oren

It’s not true, like, black or white.

[33:35] Sahara


[33:36] Oren

I think that that’s overrated and potentially flawed idea.

[33:41] Sahara

Yeah, it’s a very masculine, intellectual form of communication, it’s very, like, level two, David Data, of like “I’m going to do this because I feel this”, and, like, formulation.

[33:50] Oren

Right, and even the way you say that, it’s like “Now, I’m present”.

[33:53] Sahara


[33:53] Oren

“Now, we’re making…”

[33:54] Sahara

Right, it’s not even what you want, yeah.

[33:57] Oren

That’s what I’m saying. Is that even true, that that’s what is wanted, if we really look at that energy, right? Men need to be explicitly told what to do, why do they need to be told what to do? What man are we talking about? We’re talking about the intellectual aspect of the masculine, which is only one aspect of a masculine, but is it that, the guy who ravishes? No, it’s not. The guy who ravishes is the one who’s fucking tuned in, tapped in, turned on, passionate, alive, free within himself, that’s not coming from his head. So, even if a man succeeds, you know, at being a, you know, a brainiac, a genius at saying the right thing, being told what to do, doesn’t activate passion, no, it doesn’t, because it doesn’t arise from the being. So, that’s what I’m saying, is that even true? I think it’s an idea, and a woman who’s in her heart, here’s the thing, going back to the heart. A woman who’s in her heart, truly, which means she’s not in a state of lack, she might be feeling a lack of a desire, she could be feeling eager, but she’s vulnerable and in her heart. If a man says “Honey, I just need you to tell me what to do”, her fucking oracle is going to be like “Na-ah, that’s not going to work”, do you see what I’m saying?

[35:14] Sahara

Oh, I would hate that, yeah. 

[35:16] Oren

Right? But a man who’s in his head might believe that’s what he needs.

[35:21] Sahara

“Just tell me what to do and I’ll do it”, it’s like “I want you to want to do it”.

[35:24] Oren


[35:25] Sahara


[35:25] Oren

Exactly, I want you to want to. So, where does that want come from? It comes from being connected, that’s where the actual passion comes from, to be moved towards something.

And I do think that women’s desire for that is not misled, because it’s like, it’s in you, I want it and you actually want it too. So, if a woman’s trying to encourage, or help, or assist a man, if, genuinely, she’s being of service in that way, or even expressing her needs and being like “Hey, what can we do?”, then this is why the heart is so important. It has the power, the intelligence and knows what to say, how to say it, when to say it, do you know what I mean? And everything else is not bad, it’s just going to be a little bit more complicated, a little bit more like a chess game, a little bit more formulated. And the more we get into that, the less connection to our core, and our passion, and our power, and at the end of the day, like, that’s really what we’re wanting to feel. Like you said, we’re wanting to feel. 

So, maybe I just, hopefully, obliterated the notion that, you know, yeah, men just want to be told what to do, you know, 

I have clients like that, they’re, like, super high performers, and when they’re in that aspect of their masculine, might just be like “Hey, just tell me”, and it’s like, my integrated masculine, which means I’m connected to my feminine, might be like “That’s not what you want. But you’re lying to yourself right now”, you see. That’s when you can truly be of service.

[37:10] Sahara

Yeah, it’s speaking to the boy in them, and it’s repeating the mother-son dynamic, which is the least sexy thing. 

And you know, I think it’s like, we hear, we learn about this non-violent communication, and it can help us, if you’re going from, like, just yelling with each other with no heart, to a formula that can help. 

But I have this friend who, they took a non-violent communication course, but then the husband was demanding that she can only speak to him in this formula. So, instead of just being able to speak from her heart, she had to, every single thing, put it in the “When you did this, I feel this, and my request is…”, and she was like “I feel like I can’t have a conversation with him anymore because it needs to go through this filter now”, that, again, it took them to a certain point, but it can’t take them to that next point.

[37:52] Oren

It’s like training wheels, and I think it’s really important to understand evolution, our own evolution, is that things that help us in one phase, can hinder us in another phase. It’s not a static equation, it’s not like “Do this, this equals this, this equals this”. These forms, these structures, processes, knowledge itself, really is designed, to me, and its essence, its purest function is a design to go beyond form, or to integrate into being, toward where we’re not having to calculate something. It’s a tool, it’s almost like it’s an evolutionary tool, all forms of knowledge, processing, they’re tools to help us on our evolution as evolving souls, to come more and more into being and into our God-self, which is the infinitive intelligence, it’s the intelligence that the heart already has.

And so, that’s why we can use it and have discernment when to use it and know when to discard it so we don’t keep using it, you know what I mean? Or it doesn’t become a limitation to us.

And what I’ve noticed is, as we evolve through different stages of relationship, just loosely stated, like, going from, like, co-dependency to independence, to inter-dependence to union, is that, at each phase, something, there’s like a death and rebirth that happens. There’s things that, for example, I would say, in my relationship and my union, maybe in my last relationship, or the one before, I would receive more value from non-violent communication, conscious language like checking in, “Do you resonate, are you open to this, I’ll share, I’ll ask for permission”. But now, that would be a step backwards for me because I’m in such a state of union and intimacy and knowingness of my partner, that I don’t – it’s obvious, does that make sense?

[39:49] Sahara


[39:50] Oren

I think it’s important to acknowledge where we’re at, but also to acknowledge where we’re going, or the truth, really. And the truth is, we are in a transparent field of consciousness, we’re connected beyond our five senses, and anybody who’s tuned into the heart, which, we’re not always tuned into our heart, but anybody who is, we don’t have to – the information of what would be respectful, and honorable, and in alignment with your heart, with your soul, which you would need, that information is obvious.

[40:20] Sahara

Yeah. It feels like, when you tell me “Tune into your heart and share how you feel”, I feel like what a lot of women feel is, the times that we’ve spoken from our hearts, we have been rejected, we have been told we are too emotional, or, you know, we’re overthinking it, it’s a lot around our emotions being too much.

[40:42] Oren


[40:45] Sahara


[40:44] Oren

Yeah, that’s a…

[40:44] Sahara


[40:45] Oren

But my thought around that is, like, that’s insane, right, just as an idea. And you know, women, going to speak to the women out there, if, and I mean insane, I say that from pure love, to obliterate, the notion, that you could be too much. And so, on a level of desire, going back to, like, how do you manifest a man who’s in his masculine in this way, or can ravish you, or in this case, how do you manifest a guy that is not thinking you’re too much? It starts with you, right? 

And I just want to say, like, honestly, genuinely, I’ve never said that to my partner, I’ve never implied it, I’ve never made her feel that way, and this is not a goal, it’s miraculous perhaps, I’ve never even thought that, but that’s because I know who I am.

And so, women, ultimately, their spirit wants that, wants to be held in that way, and that’s where you, giving that level of standard, deepening in that level of standard, for your own heart and for your own being, is what will allow you to receive, manifest that, or manifest more of that through your man. 

And so, in that sense, like – I was talking to my lady the other day, and I realized this in hindsight, that I’m living what I’m saying, you know, even in my own inner feminine. I was speaking to her, and she asked me something connected to my heart, but I felt like she wasn’t really listening to me, even though she was, and she was saying the right things, kind of like, it was like, she would be like, the stereotypical man, for example, something was occupying her space. And I, like, the fire aspect of my heart, came up in the moment because she was saying “I’m with you”. And this is what I would say to ladies, I want you to feel this, it’s not demanding like in a controlling way, but it’s piercing. And I said “Look, I have compassion and I understand something’s occupying your attention, but I’m like, do not ask me to share my heart when you’re not here with my heart right now. I’m willing to, come meet me here”, that…do you feel what I’m saying? That’s a level of standard that is coming from this “I know I am not too much”, right? 

And what I suggest to women, not to be demanding, but that level of self-love will command that. So, then, it’s not just your words like “Hey, I’d like you to be more present with me”, or “Oh, I understand things are really, really difficult at work”, it’s like, then you’re able to be compassionate with why the man is, whatever, struggling to be present, and maybe he’s, you know, having a hard time at work, you’re able to be compassionate, which is like, you know, the blue pill, and truthful, at the same times, red pill. Like, also, let’s not get lost on what the truth is here, and what you desire. And I think that’s where, you know, we lose power, sometimes, on one or both ends, if we don’t have the right dose of compassion and understanding to even, you know, allow things to breathe, but also hold the truth, at the same time, which is like, you know…

And as a man, that’s how I be with myself. So, if my woman said to me, you know “Babe, I would love for you to be more present with me, or more present with me when we’re making love”, and especially if it’s something that was a pattern, I would lock myself in that, but what I would not do is give a whole list of excuses. I don’t do that. And if that sounds appealing to a woman, to be with a man like that, what I’m, hopefully, eliminating here, we can go on both sides of this, is like, well, who do you have to be, what standard do you have to have, how do you need to hold your emotions, such that you manifest a man that is honoring you and reflecting back that same level of honor.


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[46:10] Sahara

Yeah, it’s like a lot of what you’re saying, it really is dependent on our partner. And, you know, people have different relationship tips, and sometimes it’s like, well, if you want to evoke this out of your partner, you can this and you can that. But it sounds like, ultimately, if they’re just not there – you know, I could see many relationships of, one person said “Hey, I feel like you’re not being present with me right now when I’m sharing my heart with you, and please don’t ask me what’s on my heart if you’re not being present”, I could see someone taking that really poorly of like “Well, I don’t have time”, or “I don’t have this, I don’t have that”, so it’s like, then, how much further can you really go?

[46:47] Oren

Well, I think the answer to that question, which is one thing, even if it’s uncomfortable, that brings you to a sense of peace, is, it’s very difficult to answer how much further can you go if you’re still in resistance and you’re justifying you’re existence, like “Oh, I tried to say that before”, or “I would say that before, but I know it’s…”, so it’s like, it almost feels like a moment in time, if I were to just simplify it. It’s like, if you have one moment, putting yourself out there fully, which is a bold statement, and you’re not holding back, you’re not watering down, you’re not hiding things, and you, just like, from your heart, express yourself fully, and you’re devoted to that, then it becomes abundantly clear, very fast, the alignment and what’s possible and what’s worth even working on. Until you’ve hit that point, you’re also looking at the reflective mirror of who you’re being, does that make sense? And so, and that’s what has us get I think, confused or caught in these states of “How much more should I invest in this”, you know, “At what point am I pushing this? At what point can I say this is just not here, available”. I think it takes a radical level of integrity to know that “Okay, I gave it all, full spectrum, not just my words, but this person has felt my heart, what this means to me, felt my spirit and my devotion”, then you can see because now you’re not just looking at the reflection of things going on inside you, and you create the greatest opportunity and invitation for that person to see “Do you value these things to the same level that I do, not just by your words but by your actions, by your devotion?”, then, I think you have incredible discernment to be like “Okay, it’s not – this is, I’ve said it all”.

But so many times, including myself, it’s so common to think “I said it all”, yeah, it’s like “But did you say it in the way that you’re saying it to me right now?” 

I said that to a new client recently, and he was trying to convince me, at first, he was like “But I said that, but I told her”, I was like “Did you share with her, in the way that you’re sharing with me right now?”, and he’s like “Probably not”, I was like “Probably not”, he’s like “Okay, not”, I was like “So, you don’t know the outcome is”. But that way that we chirk ourselves like that in thinking that we were all in, meaning that we felt heard, understood, held, and we’re not holding anything back, that’s when we can be more at peace. Like in this gentleman’s example, if he’s going to decide to leave the relationship, or at least see like “Okay, where are you at? What are we working with here? Is it even worth investing in?” But that, that’s a, I think that, that’s, you have to be really honest with ourselves, that we are – and like, sometimes we get the words right but then, like, we’re not really transmitting what’s in our heart, so we’re not actually leaving it on the table.

So, I’m not one for trying to force things or trying to make things, and there is a real thing of like “Hey, this is just not in alignment, it’s just not worth it, this person’s ceiling is my floor”, do you know what I mean? I was like “I’m not going to spend all this effort, it’s not worth it”. You’ll know that when you’ve, you know, you’ve really left it all on the table. 

[50:19] Sahara

Is there a time that Chelsea, or any previous partners, have been able to speak in a way, from their heart, that really resonated with you and inspired change and action?

[50:30] Oren

Yeah. I appreciate, like, any heart communication, but what comes to me, and I think this is valuable for people to hear, for women to hear, and for men to hear, I appreciate pure fire, it actually feels like love to me, right. So, not only do I not resist that, I actually appreciate it, it feels like honor to me. 

And, so, yes, I have experienced that, and when that energy, which is only one expression of love, right, comes through my partner…

[51:03] Sahara

Like, what was an example? Like, was she in a rage around something, or…?

[51:08] Oren

I wouldn’t say rage, but passionately reflecting something to me that was true to her, that involved me, and I was like “Oh, got it, got it”.

[51:22] Sahara

How did you not get defensive? Because I feel like, men, often, when they feel that anger, that rage, that fire of women, their guard goes up?

[51:29] Oren

But this is the thing, that we can fun, like, picking this apart like scientists, and I say that because there is what you’re saying and there’s who you’re being. And the who you’re being part is you can feel it, but it’s invisible, right? And what I’m saying is, just, if I’m going to try to make this scientific somewhat, that the potential of someone being defensive, lowers to the degree that you raise the heat on how much you’re actually communicating from the purest fire in your heart. And that’s something that’s energetic, it’s very difficult when you’re penetrating, or even if you’re expressing rage or something, but it’s moving the heart and through this vulnerability and through this acceptance – how it hits the other person, energetically, it makes a massive difference how much it’s in the heart.

And that why, for example, even if it’s coming from love, that you’re, like, mostly in your fire, but then 20% of your energy doesn’t want to hurt the other person’s feelings, ironically, that 20% of resistance, makes it harder to digest what you’re saying. But somebody who’s more purely in a state of, like, rage, even, there’s just less susceptibility to being defensive.

I think where defensiveness gets encouraged, energetically, is when someone’s not fully in their heart, they’re not being whole in their communication, they’re actually holding back. And when somebody’s purely, and no matter what the emotion is in their heart, it’s almost, it renders you silent. It’s very hard to be “Yeah, but…”, you know what I mean? Because the buts, the defensiveness, it’s trying to find some place it knew, it hooks into whatever resistance is inside of you and it’s like “Oh, yeah, yeah, but, but…”, or like, let me close. But if you’re like “I’m here, I’m open…”, and that’s what I said, no matter if it’s joy, inspiration or rage it’s very difficult, energetically, or it’s a lot more difficult for someone to be defensive.

[53:41] Sahara

Because they can feel the love that’s moving through that. And you know, and it’s not so much about the language of like “Don’t say ‘you’ statements. I’m sure there were ‘you’ statements in there”, but it was still coming from this place of “I love you so much that you did whatever the thing is”, that the language was of such less importance, whereas, when we’re in our heads around, like, make it about how I feel, don’t make it about them, then there’s that wall, which is felt, and the other person mirrors the wall and then there’s just continual separation.

[54:11] Oren

And then it seems incredibly complicated and it’s like “Oh my god, we’re stuck”. Like, Chelsea and I, we don’t get stuck, you know. And what I’m describing here, as I reflect, is one of the favorite things for me, about our relationship, is, we don’t have to get the words right because we have a foundation of safety and honor in our field that it’s like, you know what the fuck I’m trying to say. Do you know, like, don’t listen to words, it’s the meaning, you know, what’s the intent? It’s so loud, it’s so clear and we’re so much about that, that we don’t have to, like, be so attentive to our words. It’s like, there’s, you know, a trust in, like, the intention of what’s being spoken, you know, and that’s why we don’t get that distracted or get lost in the sauce on of like “Oh, but you said this”, or “You said that, and that wasn’t true”, it’s like, okay, whatever, you know. Where are we going? What do we want? What needs to be served here? And that takes a lot of courage, but it’s possible. It takes a lot of courage, and it takes a lot of trust, but trust is an interesting thing, right? It’s like, how do we actually develop trust? We don’t develop trust through control. That’s how the ego tries to create trust. It’s like, if I can control this, then I’ll feel safe and I’ll trust, but that’s not the truth. You can’t relax if you create trust through being in control. Trust gets created, actually, from feeling safe in the unknown, from resting in something else. And I think that’s a very important ingredient for relationships, is that we – it’s such an abstract concept, it’s very palpable in the feeling of it, and in the absence of it, but it’s such, it’s kind of, like, the word ‘fear’, or “I have this block coming up, or this fear”. Sometimes we get so abstract and disconnected from the feeling of what we’re saying, but trust is another one of those things. We just try to oversimplify it, like “I don’t trust”, “I’m not feeling safe”, and it’s like, but do you actually know, are you on a pathway to getting to trust, do you even know the way there, how do you do that? Or, if you’re rebuilding trust, how do you get there? What is it, right?

Side note, but not a side note, because I feel like, because trust and safety is at the foundation of relationship, and the relationships being able to thrive, I think it’s worthy of investigating and really prioritizing, like, what is it that’s going to take us deeper and deeper into this sense of safety and trust that we seek? And what I – it’s not control, it’s not the mind, that doesn’t allow our hearts to relax. Somehow, some way, however, crawl, walk, stumble, fly, trip, slowly, quickly, quantumly, it’s one direction, it’s towards love.

[57:21] Sahara

If there was some sort of lie in a relationship, where the trust was raptured, what does the pathway of rebuilding trust look like?

[57:30] Oren

I think, again, getting to the heart of the lie is a piece of it. I’m only starting there because it’s the piece that usually gets left out, because the other piece which is like, almost like the spirit of it, be like, the truth, it’s the integrity. That’s where the power is, that’s where you know, communication can flow. So, if that’s been disrupted, and then one tries to come back into integrity, I think the heart piece, and this is investigating, like, within oneself, or within relationship even, you know, what was really at the heart of this action, like, what was going on inside your heart, from a true place of care? And care and compassion doesn’t mean agreement, care and compassion doesn’t mean you’re endorsing bad behavior, it just means, like, let’s see what’s here. Because the disconnect or out of integrity appears as the behavior, and so, it’s not that the behavior is not relevant or shouldn’t be tended to, it’s just the behavior that broke the trust is a side effect of a disconnect, but what’s at the heart of the disconnect? And maybe, you know, maybe you start there, maybe you wind up there, but that is a key ingredient, even for an individual, to trust themselves again, and you’ll be like “Okay, like, why? Like, what was happening deeper inside of you?”, go deep because that’s where the love is trying to enter and that’s really the basis of where the healing is going to happen that allows you, then, to take the impulse of your integrity, you know, and create the new behavior, in a way that’s going to actually sink in and be sustainable, toward where you’re actually trusting yourself even. 

So, I mean, I could go deeper into that, but in essence, getting to the heart of why – because if you’re asking why, and you’re in upset then you’re not going to – it’s a different question, it’s like, why would you do that? Basically, what we’re saying is “That was wrong, it’s like, okay, you’re right, it was wrong, okay, I shouldn’t have done that, okay, now what, now what?” You’ve got to, kind of, get past that layer, which is still, like the protection, or trying to come back to a sense of safety and power, and into, like, what’s really at the heat of this, you know.

[1:00:00] Sahara

Because, ultimately, you know, we lie because we believe the truth won’t be accepted, and then, if we tell the truth, we will be abandoned, which is, you know, eventually, the light comes out and creates that thing. 

So, you know, speaking about infidelity, because I would say, in the state of California, it’s a number one cause of divorce, and I feel a lot of people, you know, when something like that happens, it’s about the lie component, and I think it’s also the shame as well, that that person carries a lot of shame, so they don’t know how to say it, so, of course, they’re lying, and it just, you know, creates this dynamic where it’s very hard to rebuild from. And we’ve interviewed different people on the Podcast, and some were and some weren’t. So, I’m curious your take on this, yeah, and even questioning monogamy and relationships? I know you and Chelsea are in a monogamous relationship, we’ve briefly spoke about this, but sometimes it feels like the solution to infidelity is just to be open because, then that fear is no longer there. But I know a lot of people’s deepest desire is not that.

[1:01:01] Oren

Yeah, I wouldn’t say there’s a one solution, but it’s like, again, it’s like, getting to the heart of it, like, why, you know, what is it that created the behavior, right? Because that gives you the code of, like, how do you actually restore trust. And you know, somebody lies in a relationship, and this could easily be overly spiritualized and beat ourselves up with, but in most cases (maybe every case), if you have, you know, a relationship going along, and there’s infidelity that happens, right, and so, there’s a lie there, in most cases I’ve seen, both people were lying on some level, maybe in different ways, maybe this person’s not cheating, but lying to themselves or not actually expressing their needs, or expressing their truth. And maybe over time, it accumulates to this disconnect, this disruption of intimacy in the field, and then maybe one person’s reaction to that is cheating. But to the victim, who got cheated on, it’s like, if you look back and, like, really look deeply, this is part of gaining back your own power, which, also gains back a sense of trust, because it’s like, in the distrust, there’s also a distrust of yourself, right? Because you’re like “Oh, I had my heart open, I was in my innocence and I was trusting and see, it betrayed me, I was being truthful, this person was not”, there is something valuable, I found, to being honest and really seeing where were we not being truthful to ourselves, as part of the dynamic. That doesn’t mean that cheating is okay or that you should tolerate that, but it is another part of gaining back your own power. 

And when I’ve worked with people on this, there’s always something there, it’s like, track back, maybe it’s in hindsight, you look, oh, there was, like, fifty different moments before the cheating happened. Or you’re in this communication dynamic, you’re in this relational dynamic where, okay, maybe they’re not being completely honest, but you’re not being completely honest either, about how you feel, about what you’re tolerating, about what your needs are, do you get what I’m saying? And that accumulates over a period of time, and what I’m saying is, that’s also a part of the reclamation of trust in oneself and being able to build towards, even, trusting another, you know. Because, then, you don’t feel as much of a victim if you can see, with compassion, of course, because it’s not like you’re trying to betray yourself, but you don’t feel like as much of a victim if you can, kind of, see more deeply, like “Oh, this is where I’m growing, and I was afraid to say this, at this point, or to express my needs, or to stand up for myself, or to speak my truth in these instances, and that made me available for…”, see what I’m saying? So, it’s another key piece of it.

[1:04:07] Sahara

Yeah, I definitely think that any energy that one person feels in the relationship, the other one does too, it’s just whether it’s conscious or not.

[1:04:13] Oren


[1:04:15] Sahara

And often, I feel people cheat because it’s their way of feeling something that they don’t know how to bring into the relationship, so they feel like they must get it from somewhere else. And some couples are able to, then, be super honest with each other and use that as a way to really – like, we had Rachel and Johann come on the Podcast, and that was their story, and it really brought them closer into this beautiful union. And then there’s other relationships that don’t work.

And kind of a theme that I’ve been noticing in what you’re sharing is, it’s really dependent on the partner. So, let’s say you’re in a partnership and, you know, you listen to this Podcast, and you dive deep, and that person just isn’t meeting you there. At what point would you say you would know – and I know there’s so much nuance in it, but what questions can we ask ourselves to know if it’s worth walking away from, especially, a lot of couples have kids and they’re like “I can’t just walk away because he’s not meeting me, that would be selfish of me”? So, at what point is that the story, yeah?

[1:05:16] Oren

But I mean, this, kind of, goes back to what I was saying earlier about showing up fully, to be able to see “Oh, this is that point”, you know. Because, even like, this person’s not meeting me, it’s like, okay, well, why? And if you can get past the why, like “I’m upset about the fact that you’re not meeting me”, and actually get to the heart of it, then you’ll see what you’re working with, you’ll see if it’s something that is a point of growth or if it’s something that – let’s say you get to the heart of, okay, the reason why this person isn’t meeting you is because they have some particular fear, then it’s like, well, maybe that starts to be helpful now, because if it’s a fear, then it’s not real, it could be overcome. But then, take it a step further, it’s like, okay, well, you have that fear, how much do you want this relationship and how much devotion do you have to overcoming that fear? That’s another really good question because you could have the same value and be like “Yeah, we’re on the same page”, but maybe you’re like “I’m completely devoted to this and willing to do whatever”, and the other person might be like “Oh, this makes sense”, you see, there’s a misalignment, right?

So, these are some, kind of, nuances of misalignment. And so, to me, I am, first, aiming to get to the barebones truth of like, what’s actually happening here, what’s on the table here? Because then you’ll see what’s possible, you can see your deal-breaker zones, you can see “Is this even worth working on?”, you know, “Is this something that we’re both, actually, on the same page?”, but you just have some fear, but your devotion to this love is overriding in the fear, so then, it’s like “Okay, we’re just growing together”, or is it something that your devotion to your fear, or whatever, is more important to you than this, in which case, then it’s like “Well, there’s nothing really there even worth moving towards”.

[1:07:04] Sahara

Yeah, I think a lot of relationships, they don’t really know why they are together.

[1:07:09] Oren


[1:07:10] Sahara

You know, it’s just, they just are because they’re used to it, because they have kids, because it seems too complicated to get a divorce, you know. 

And we were recently at this retreat, this S-Factor retreat, and I was talking about all these, like, beautiful women and most of them were moms, like, empty-nesters, and it was a lot of the same story of like “My husband and I haven’t had sex in two years”, and, you know, all of these different dynamics. And then, a lot of just…

[1:07:37] Oren

Two years?

[1:07:38] Sahara


[1:07:39] Oren

I heard a clip yesterday, from the Impact Theory, this woman was being interviewed, she said something about a sex recession, I was like…

[1:07:48] Sahara

Oh, it’s true.

[1:07:48] Oren

How people were, like, not having sex for a year, two years. Anyway, Chelsea and I were chirping on that, like what?!

[1:07:54] Sahara

Well, it’s, actually this generation is he first generation that’s having less sex than the generation before, because everything’s online and, you know, people are just like “Oh, I don’t want to put in the effort”, and you know. But it was interesting to witness because – yeah, for some of these women, they took it as “Well, I’m going to inspire, through my feminine, for him to show up and, you know, work on ourselves more”, and then, for other people it’s just “Well, maybe this isn’t the right person”. And I think that’s what a lot of women struggle with, is like “Can I change him?”, you know, the big question.

[1:08:31] Oren

Yeah, and I think the simplicity of that, though, is starting from not needing to change him, because then you can be in a perfect synchronicity with where he is. And if there is an alignment and he actually wants to change, and his motivation for change is meeting your motivation for him to change, then it’s not going to feel like you’re changing him, it’s like, no, this is your desire, you know.

So, we have things like that come up in our relationship sometimes, where, I’ll even be talking about me and my desire, and I’ve said to her, on a couple of occasions, I’m like “Just to be clear, this is not just my desire, it’s your desire”, I’m like “Whatever it is that I’m wanting, you’re wanting”, and she’d be like “Yeah”.

[1:09:14] Sahara

Because you becoming that will make her want you more, which you want, and it’s like a mutual…

[1:09:18] Oren

There’s an alignment there, and in that energy, that the heart and spirit can resonate with that because there’s no judgment there. It’s not like somebody’s trying to change you, it’s like “Oh, no, this is an energy that’s unfolding in you, which means it is you, and you’re becoming it, you’re desiring it”, and if the other person’s also desiring that same thing, then, then when you’re encouraging it, you’re not trying to change someone, it’s not coming across as you’re not okay as you are. And that’s how we can be loving, but not settle, or not use love against ourselves and be like “Well, if I’m in a state of love, then I can just tolerate not having my desires fulfilled here”. That’s how I say you can balance that.

[1:10:05] Sahara

So, what would be the next step? Let’s say the woman tells her husband, you know “From my heart, I deeply desire to just have that beautiful spark that we had at the beginning of our relationship where we couldn’t keep our hands off of each other and we had more spontaneity, and fun, and light-heartedness, and I want to continue making these memories with you and having incredible sex”, and he’s like “I want that too”, and it’s like “Okay, now what?”

[1:10:31] Oren

Yeah, I think that, you know, one of the things that can help to answer that question, or to even have a fruitful pursuit towards that spark, is you need permission to be, unconditionally, right. Almost like, put the relationship aside for a moment, right, and instead of focusing so much on trying to create the spark (which can help), so, I’m not saying don’t do that, I’m just saying do more of whatever it is I’m about to describe here, which would be, create an environment that is conducive to the spark coming alive inside of you. And that’s where I said well, find out what’s at the heart of it. You almost have to put your own desire aside for a moment, to truly be in service to the heart and the soul, because that’s where you can unlock what is, hopefully, already there. And with the spark, a lot of times, it’s more so about allowing it, unlocking it, than it is about generating it. Like, generating can take you so far, and sometimes, maybe you just need the generating energy to do the exercise, you play the game, you do the thing, you’re like “Cool, the spark is back!” And I would complement that with, if not even, start, of like, what is it, what’s at the heart of this, you know?”

I’ll share something personally, like, from my last relationship, coming into this one, we both had a desire for increased intimacy, like, sexual intimacy, sexual chemistry. I mean, our love life was amazing, and we’re both ambitious souls, we’re like spiritual Olympians, and so, we’re like, you know “Shoot for the stars, shoot for the stars”, so, there’s an alignment there. And from my point of view, in that equation, I realized, at some point, that my way of going about it was not going to get me there. And that was when I got in touch with my own heart and my own soul, and I was like, well, without any judgment or performance or being like “How can I do that?”, put that aside for a moment, let’s just go barebones, like, where is this primal energy not fully being allowed? And once I discovered a well of that, I put my attention there, I took my attention off of this for a moment, the trying to find more spark, it’s not like we didn’t have a spark, we had lots of sparks, you know, flames even, but, you know, leaning into this desire for more, right. And I found, for me, it’s like, I don’t feel completely free in my being, I feel like the, and this was subconscious too, some of this is in hindsight, I feel like the part of me that’s so rooted in faith and knowing in an unexplainable way, like, my faith in general, in myself, by myself, within myself, is, like, pretty impenetrable. And I trust that, and I trust life, deeply. But in relationship with another being, there, and I discovered a lot of this along the way, I wasn’t feeling completely free not just, like, in my self-expression and being myself, but this huge part of who I am that I can’t explain, which is my connection with God and my faith, and I was like “Oh, that’s not fully penetrating through my being, in the relationship and in intimacy”. And I was like “If I can get to that, that’s going to result in that”. 

And so, you know…

[1:14:19] Sahara

I feel like a lot of us – I resonate with that, of like “I feel connected to God all the time, I’m seeing numbers, the synchronicities, I’m in flow with my dharma, but when it comes to relationship, I’m just Jesus, take the wheel, I don’t know what’s going on!” And it’s like, yeah, how do we have that same level of trust in something greater orchestrating all of it?

[1:14:39] Oren

Yeah. And to tie that into your question – to me, a question like “How can I have greater trust?”, is a very intelligent question that unlocks more of the spark that’s already there. And I’m not saying that’s always the case, but often, that’s the case, especially if you’re like “We want the spark, or the spark we had, or the passion”, do you know what I mean? It’s like, it might be bound up in trust, like, quite simply, and that’s why the space of putting the desire aside, definitely putting the judgment aside, the eagerness aside for a moment, and truly being of service to the heart and the soul, and asking the question of “Okay, well, why did we lose the spark?”, do you feel the energy of that? It’s not like “We shouldn’t have, that’s bad, this sucks, we really want it”.

[1:15:29] Sahara

Yes, it’s curious.

[1:15:29] Oren

It’s just like, truly, like, why, you know. And I think that, in my relationship with Chelsea, it really helps that both of us are more devoted to love than the relationship, which means we’re more devoted to each other’s souls and what each other’s souls and hearts need, more than the relationship. Now, that makes up our relationship, but that devotion and that way of being in relationship, then, when we come to a question like, you know, which we haven’t, our love life has been on fire and keeps expanding…

[1:16:05] Sahara

What does she say, deep-throating/

[1:16:07] Oren

Yeah, I don’t remember what she said.

[1:16:09] Sahara

It’s okay. Like, something super raunchy and beautiful, I loved it. But yeah, but I think you guys are willing to (you haven’t had to), but walk away, if that’s what love is requiring you to do.

[1:16:21] Oren

Exactly. And that right there, and when we get down to the roots of this, is at the source of a lot of tension, and it could be in the unconscious. 

What my new client was telling me about, you know, he’s working on trust in his relationship, and, you know, mainly from her past experience, not necessarily from him violating her trust, and he’s, like, wanting to… But what was at one of the cores of his resistance was the fear, the unwillingness to walk away, if that’s what the clarity revealed. So, then, it’s like “We’re trying to get clarity, we’re trying to get clarity, it’s confusing, I’m confused”, that’s what he’s like, like “I’m confused, I’m confused”, I was like “Step one, like, you’re not confused, you’re afraid”, see, closer to truth, he’s like “You’re right”, and I was like “Don’t complicate this”. That’s the tough love part, right, that’s the masculine expression of love, it’s like, you know “I feel your pain and what’s underneath the confusion, and I feel for you, and the truth, you’re afraid”, because if you believe you’re confused and you’re like, oh, you’re weighing this and that, and then, when you think about speaking your truth to her, even unconsciously, like “I’ve done that before”, I was like “But have you?”, right, it’s like, you’re afraid, you know.

And so, at least being willing to try on, it doesn’t matter if it’s uncomfortable, it could be terrifying, are you willing to walk away, if that’s the truth? If there is an intelligent, if there’s an answer somewhere, even if God’s got the answer, you know there’s an answer, because you’re seeking it, what is true here, what is the best thing to do? That’s all we’re ever trying to do, is to do the best we can. Your willingness to permeate that, as an option even, just willingness to even look at it, to even let it into you, even if it’s scary, actually brings more clarity, instantly. Because, otherwise, you’re fighting that tension, maybe it’s low level in the background, and it’s faded, you can’t hardly feel it, or it’s in the foreground and you’re, like, feeling super tense, that is a form of tension and you can penetrate that with truth, with your heart. Truth, just meaning like, would you agree that, like, you’re seeking the best thing here, would you agree that you don’t know what it is? Yes. Would you agree that you’re afraid? Yes. Cool! Don’t complicate that part. Are you willing to walk away, if you knew that that was the best thing for both of you? Sometimes, that’s the thing that creates the space to even be like, have a more fruitful, even, investigation, or effort, or get to that point of clarity that you’re seeking, like, is this worth being in? And I think that if you’re not at these core levels that I’m trying to describe, then it creates the illusion of confusion or complexity, it makes it seem that it’s way more complex than it is.

[1:19:37] Sahara

And I think that’s why a lot of people avoid going to therapy or coaching, because they’re afraid of “What might happen if I know the truth, which might be, I would have to walk away?” Or even sitting with medicine, of “Well, what if it tells me, me and this person are not meant to be with each other? I wouldn’t be able to handle that, so let me not drink the medicine”, but that’s, you know, the fear of the truth.

[1:19:58] Oren

Right. And the result of the fear of the truth is, we don’t trust ourselves. And then when we don’t trust ourselves, then, when we come into relationships, it’s dictating the level of trust we can emanate and bring into the relationship. So, it’s like, we don’t get away from ourselves anyway, so we might as well burn in the uncomfortability of like, you know, what we perceive that the truth is going to, like, hurt, or might create pain. We might as well choose that pathway because it has the upside potential of clarity, of discernment, of power, of a good life than to avoid that in a predictable, spiraling down of less empowered, less trust, more confused, more complicated. It’s the sense of, this is when things, like, feel endless, it’s like “Why does it always feel like, endless?” 

That’s why, with my client, he was like, I could feel him, he was like “Oh, but I’ve tried that. Oh, I tried that”. We had that conversation, I’m like “You’re still holding on, you’re not willing to let go”, that’s why it seems endless, like, you’re not connected to your own truth, because your spirit is resonating with, truly, with your intention, with, like, what’s the best thing here, that is what you want, even of you feel like you’re dying there. And just admitting that, or humbling ourselves to that, can release the resistance to it, because, when we have resistance, that’s when we get caught in our head and we don’t know if we’re not sure, or we’re like “I gave it all but I still have doubt”, and then it’s like, then we’re plagued with doubt and uncertainty vs. clarity and, like, peace, even if it’s difficult. You know, there is a sense of peace about arriving at a place where you feel like “You know what, the truth has been revealed here, yeah”.

[1:21:59] Sahara

And I think the goal of a relationship is not to maintain the relationship at any odds possible, but it’s to live in love. And in my own experience, I would rather live alone in truth than in partnership in lie.

[1:22:16] Oren

Right, because when you’re in a lie, you’re not in a truth, then, on the surface, you might be like “Hey, we’re in love”, but you’re not actually experiencing the fullness of love anyway. And I mean, that’s the big deal about love, it’s to actually feel it, experience it, otherwise, it’s just a concept. Being with somebody doesn’t mean that love is flowing, you know. To me, that feels like prison, that feels like death, more so, than being alone does.

[1:22:44] Sahara


[1:22:45] Oren

Do you know what I mean? It’s like, if this is not, like, if we’re not actually here, what’s the point?

[1:22:53] Sahara

Yeah, for me, now being single, I’m like “Oh, I’m a love devotee”, like, the purpose of my life is love, whereas in my marriage, I actually never used those terminologies, I never felt that because, now, I’m tuned into the actual spirit of love, which is far beyond relationship, marriage or any form of institution.

[1:23:12] Oren

A hundred percent! I think that the institutions and the relationship constructs, and the marriage, and all the things that we do, aren’t they all, on some level, designed to try to get us to love? So, it’s like, why not start with love, or like I said, don’t try to contain love, let love contain you.

[1:23:33] Sahara

And let go of attachment.

[1:23:35] Oren

Yeah, let go of attachment, you know, which, attachment comes from disconnection and separation, you know, from love, or from – like, when we know that we contain that which we’re seeking, like, in essence, then it doesn’t make sense to be attached to something, right? Then we’re in the state of abundance, instead of in a state of lack. And abundance manifests in many different forms, and when we’re truly not understanding that, but in the actual state of allowing that, then, in that state of detachment, then it’s like, love, which is in here, it’s just here. So, then it can transform, it can shapeshift, change forms, but there’s a continuum, because love is still there. And so, on a relational level, on a human level, of how we want to express love in a relationship, then you can manifest, design, create, whatever, a relationship that’s an expression of that love. See, so there’s no loss there, and because there’s no loss, part of attachment is the perception of loss, but it’s just that, it’s a perception of loss. Just because we change the form of something, whatever is essential, is essential, so, it’s not an actual loss there. So, yes, we can you know, love that and grieve that, and you know, something about that is natural to our human experience, we can be compassionate, love that and grieve that, without believing that there’s a loss, because, as soon as we believe there’s a loss, that’s when we’re attaching, it’s literally like we’re holding onto something and we can’t see that, whatever we’re seeking, we have, you know, both inside of us, and even have, in terms of whatever manifestation, you know, another partner, for example. 

And if we knew, let’s be honest, if we actually knew, not understood, if we knew that, then we would transition from one expression of love to the other more like little children and just be like “Oh, I’m playing with this toy, it’s awesome”, I’m not trying to deromanticize or take the sacredness out of relationship, but on an energetic level, it’s like, if we knew what is true, which is abundance, which is love is inside of us, then we wouldn’t be attached. And to me, that’s my more grounded way of understanding and getting to a space of detachment vs., like, trying to act like you don’t care about something or “Let me detach from it”, but it’s like, you deeply care. 

I think true detachment comes from revelation, comes from realization that, you know, “Oh, I am the love that I’m seeking”. When you know that, not if, when you know that, you are being filled with that. You’re not feeling the lack of love at the same – you’re just not. Our egos can’t fathom that sometimes because, like, no…

[1:26:42] Sahara

We actually create more space for it.

[1:26:44] Oren


[1:26:45] Sahara

Yeah. I, directly, experienced this myself, so, ladies, wherever you are, know that love is everywhere, and it’s inside of you. And yeah, and sometimes we have to be willing to walk away from that which is not love for us to experience the wholeness that is  love, which leads us back to God, which is really what we’re all really desiring here, is to merge with the universal love consciousness through another.

[1:27:10] Oren

Exactly. And being willing to walk away from something that’s not in alignment is love, it is love. 

[1:27:16] Sahara

Yes! It is, it’s the most loving thing you do for both people.

[1:27:19] Oren

A hundred percent! I think we’d all agree, just on a basic human level, just, like, you don’t really want to talk to somebody who doesn’t want to talk to you, do you know what I mean? Your mind might be like “Blah blah blah”, no, “I do”, but you don’t. You want to talk with somebody who wants to talk to you, you know. So, it’s the same thing with love, it’s like, it has to be beneficial for both parties and all of life when we are true to ourselves, and when we love ourselves, and when we love ourselves enough to allow and to do what is truly serving our souls, that, there is no lack in that, it’s not like “Well, if I do that, then you’re going to lose”, or “If this leads me out of this relationship”, it is literally impossible from the place I’m saying it, for the other person to lose, there has to be a simultaneous gain because it’s anchored in truth, and truth is anchored in abundance.

Now, it might take a little bit of time, that’s, we’re largely governing how much time it’s going to take for us to allow the love that’s present, and in case of relationship allow another form to come in, you know. And we’ve all experienced that before, like “Oh my god, I’m dying, this is the worst thing ever, I’ll never recover from this”, and then you’re like “Oh my god, I am so grateful for that, I’m so happy that happened”, you know, like, that’s, we’ve all experienced that.

[1:28:44] Sahara

Always, the glow up on the other side.

[1:28:46] Oren

Yeah. I think, over time, and this probably gets a little bit into another conversation like spiritual awakening, over time, that knowingness of that doesn’t really leave you, even if you haven’t experienced it or seen it. And so, you eventually transcend the fear of death, because that’s what it can feel like to the self, it’s like “Deep pain, loss, I’m dying”, you know what I mean, and then rebirth “I’m filled with life again”. You know, if you die and rebirth enough times, eventually, you start to trust it, and then, when you’re at the…

[1:29:23] Sahara

You’re like “Ooh death”.

[1:29:25] Oren


[1:29:25] Sahara

What’s on the other side?

[1:29:26] Oren

Exactly, like, my life was already awesome, so, I can’t see.

[1:29:30] Sahara

Thank you, God, next initiation.

[1:29:32] Oren

It just means it’s about to get more awesome.

[1:29:34] Sahara

Yeah, I love it. Well, thank you so much for sharing all of your wisdom with us today. And where can listeners connect with you further?

[1:29:40] Oren

@orenharris on Instagram, also on Facebook, and then my website is orenharris.com

[1:29:50] Sahara

Beautiful! Well, thank you again for being there! And thank you all so much for tuning in. 

[1:29:55] Sahara

If you loved this Episode, please leave a review for it in the iTunes Store and we will send you my Womb Meditation. This is a meditation to connect to your inner womb wisdom, which we spoke a lot about, kind of, today, it’s that inner feminine knowing. So, leave a review for the Podcast, take a screenshot and email it over to me at [email protected] and I will send you that meditation. You can find all of that, and his links, in the show notes. 

Thank you so much for tuning in and I’ll see you in the next one!                    

Episode#507: The Secrets To Steaming Hot Polarity In Relationships with Oren Harris
By Sahara Rose

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