If you’re anything like me, you’ve been feeling a lot of anger recently with the blatant infringement on our human rights that has occurred. And this anger isn’t new. It’s deep, ancient, primal, the screams of our grandmothers who never got to choose, whose wombs were a commodity, whose worth was based on who they could birth. We’ve had enough and today, we rise. In this conversation, I sit with mystic poet Maya Luna to discuss divine feminine rage and how we can connect with it, despite our fear. We discuss toxic femininity and how we can find it within ourselves. We dive into the wounds of the patriarchy and within it, share our art. You will want to sit with this episode in sacred space because it is potent, transformative and deep. And a conversation that needs to be had. We invite you to sit with us and reclaim the divine feminine rage within you. She is ready for change and respect.

Listen to Maya’s Poetry here: https://open.spotify.com/artist/4F3qNrjVBCjwd43Z2Fozi6 and connect with her here: https://www.deepfemininemysteryschool.com/

Connect with your body’s wisdom with my free Goddess Embodiment Practice free at http://www.rosegoldgoddesses.com/embodiment

Try Betterhelp for 10% off at www.betterhelp.com/sahara

*As a BetterHelp affiliate, we may receive compensation from BetterHelp if you purchase products or services through the links provided

Intro + Outro Music: Silent Ganges by Maneesh de Moor

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TRANSCRIPTION

Episode 444: Sacred Feminine Rage in a Post Roe v Wade Overturn World with Maya Luna
By Sahara Rose

[00:12] Sahara
Namaste, it’s Sahara Rose and welcome back to The Highest Self Podcast, a place where we discuss what makes You, Your Soul’s Highest Evolvement.

[00:20] Sahara
I have been sitting with anger. Anger, an emotion that I have not totally felt comfortable with. Anger has been something that, in my life, has been a harmful force. I grew up with a dad who had anger management issues. So, for me, I always looked at anger as something scary, something destructive, something harmful. And I never wanted to be an angry person because I saw what that did to other people, so, anger was something I stayed away from. However, a few months ago, I realized that there was this deep anger within me towards the patriarchy, towards the way that our womb has been used and abused and a commodity, time and time again. And with the recent news of Roe vs. Wade being overturned, and the way that our rights have been stripped from us, it has brought back to surface this deep, ancient anger that I am no longer afraid of. And I’m not the only one feeling this, I know this is felt in the wombs of the collective right now, not just in the US, but around the world.

[01:46] Sahara
So, I wrote this poem and I’d like to start the Podcast sharing this poem because, really, I’ve been sitting with that poetry, and art is truly the way that we can create change, because it allows the vibration and the essence of the message to hit on a deeper level. So, these words came through:

[02:10] Sahara – poem
My womb is not your commodity,
She’s not available to be voted on or debated about,
She is sacred, ancient and holy,
She is your mother and she’s been abused to levels you will never understand.

You cannot choose for my womb based on your mind,
You will not have political discussions over her rights,
You are not her master,
You don’t even really know her.

You’ve never felt the ancient cries of women who’ve been impregnated and abandoned, time and time again,
You never felt the pain women have felt for a man’s measly minute of pleasure,
You’ve never felt the fear that it feels like to walk around the world with a diamond men want to possess,
You haven’t heard the age-old screams of women who’ve been sentenced to a life they didn’t choose,
You never felt the sadness of the billions of women whose worth was based on who she could birth,
You don’t get to choose,
You will not vote on my womb.

[03:38] Sahara
I’m feeling the deep feminine rage that my grandmothers weren’t allowed to. You see, my grandmother was in a forced child marriage when she was 11 years old, and she didn’t even know that that was wrong, until she moved to the US in her 50s, because that is how normalized the patriarchy is. It finds its way, within your consciousness, that you begin acting it out. And this is how insidious this system is, it makes us think that it’s doing this out of our protection, out of our best good, because patriarchy knows best.

[04:19] Sahara
The fact that we won’t listen to women’s stories on a woman’s issue shows it all. And I know many of you right now, listening to this, are feeling this too, in your womb, in your heart. This deep, ancient anger that sometimes just makes you want to cry, you don’t even what to do with it. And that is why I wanted to have this conversation today with Maya Luna.

[04:47] Sahara
So, I very recently came across her work, after the Roe vs. Wade overturn, and I found an Instagram Live that she did about feminine rage, and I watched the whole thing and it just hit me. And I just loved the way that she explains rage and anger, in a way that I had never heard it expressed before.
So, I brought her on the Podcast so we could have a discussion on how we can channel this rage, sit with this rage, without letting it overcome us, without being afraid of it, without directing it/misdirecting it at people, and how this anger can actually be a powerful fuel for change.
So, this is an Episode you’ll really want to sit with, I recommend being present, it is an experience, it is a transmission, she shares her poetry in this conversation as well.
And right now, we need to keep having this discussion! It saddens me to go online, and I barely see anyone talking about it anymore, it’s been less than two weeks. And I believe it’s because we just don’t know what to do, and I don’t have the perfect solution, but I know that these conversations need to be continued to be had. And we’re here to help, on various levels, some of us politically, some of us judicially, some of us within the homes, some of us within the herbal realm, some of us within the goddess realm, there are so many ways to help, physical, non-physical. But we can’t come to the solution to a problem that we’re too afraid to even look at. So, this is really the time to sit with our rage, to get to know it and see what wisdom she carries.

[06:31] Sahara
So, without further ado, let’s welcome poet, mystic, Maya Luna to The Highest Self Podcast.

_________________________________________________________________

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[08:08] End of Advertisement
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[08:09] Interview

[08:09] Sahara
Welcome, Maya, to The Highest Self Podcast, it’s so great to have you here! The first question I would love to ask you is what makes you your highest self?

[08:20] Maya
Well, what makes me my highest self is the radical courage and freedom that is willing to walk the razor’s edge in every single moment and free-fall, not knowing what’s coming next, nothing to lose, nothing to prove, absolute, embodied, present moment, trust.

[08:43] Sahara
Yes! So beautifully said! Whenever we tune in to the womb, she just knows!

[08:53] Maya
Yeah!

[08:54] Sahara
Yes! I recently found your work around, just, the collective anger that myself and so many have been feeling with the overturn of Roe vs Wade, and just all of the undercurrents around, not, I think this is just, like, really like the tip of the iceberg around this deeper collective rage, that I have felt into in the past before, and we can talk more about that. But I feel like, overall, with the feminine, there has been this, like, disdain of our rage, of like “Anger is bad. People who are angry are irrational and they’re out of touch with their emotions”.
And also, I think a lot of us have been in a way, victims to male anger. Myself, my dad had really bad anger issues, so for me, when I saw an angry person, I saw an erratic person, a violent person, a person I would not want to be like, it also wasn’t safe, there wasn’t room for us to both be angry, if he’s the angry one, I can’t be the angry one. So, I think a lot of us have felt that before.
So, how can we tune into our rage, our anger, when there is this, just, like, internal, maybe like “Compass, don’t go there, that’s not safe territory”, that all of a sudden we start to move in that direction?

[10:09] Maya
Absolutely! Oh my gosh, there’s so much to say here! The first thing that I’ll say is that, it’s really important that we separate the difference between acting out behaviors of anger, which is what we usually think of anger being. So, it’s yelling, it’s shouting, it’s saying mean things, it’s aggression, it’s bullying, it’s violence, it’s abusive, right? So, there’s a difference between the action and the behavior of anger, even engaging the behavior and action of anger in a healthy way, there’s a difference between the action and the behavior, and the inner energetic state.
Anger is lifeforce, it’s Shakthi, it’s passionate, red, blood, I call it like the life blood of the Goddess. It is powerful, potent, passionate energy, and there is a lot that we can do with anger on an internal level that can be healing, actually, that can infuse us with the ferocity to stand our truth, to set boundaries, to infuse our activism, but it begins within, it begins deeper than, I think, most of us have ever gone with anger, right?
I make a lot of comparisons between sacred sexuality and – so, sacred sexuality and eros is another passionate energy, that’s another red, passionate energy, it’s embodied, it’s the Goddess. And we all have seen the way that sexuality has been distorted for so long, this idea that we can be present with our sexuality, that we can be devotional, reverent, embodied, conscious, that we can regard this energy as sacred and respect it. We can do the same thing with anger.

[12:20] Sahara
So, I heard you speak once about how sometimes, when we talk about channeling our anger, it’s always this very cathartic practice of punch pillows or go to a break room and scream and shout and let it out, and you have a different method. Can you share a little bit more about this?

[12:39] Maya
I do, I do! Well, I want to go back to something that you asked initially, actually, before I go into that, which is this way that, as women, especially, we have been really dissociated from our anger. Most women don’t have a strong connection to their anger and that’s because femininity, the way that we’re conditioned as females, as girls, is basically to just never be angry, it’s to be sweet, to be nice, to be pleasing, to certainly never be angry – and this is what I call toxic femininity conditioning.
So, just like men, through toxic masculinity conditioning, are conditioned to never feel their pain, to never feel their grief. Women are conditioned to disembowel, not feel or express our anger, which creates so many problems in women’s lives. I could pass at you to say no, I could pass at you to defend ourselves, to advocate for ourselves, to protect our bodies.
I think a lot of autoimmune disorders that women have come from this suppressed anger.
And so, the catharsis thing, yes, you’re right, most healing personal self-development models, if you’re going to do anger work, it’s catharsis, get it all out.
What I think generally, women in particular, need more than anything, is the ability to sustain and hold the charge of that anger, ferocity, fight response, to not dissipate it, to not get rid of it, but to have access to it, because we need it, we need anger, just like we need any other emotion. And I think that catharsis can blow out our nervous system, I think it can be overwhelming. I think for a lot of us, we go into catharsis and then we just start to cry because we know how to cry, we’re good at crying, we’re good at feeling hurt, we’re good at feeling grief. We need to actually go slower with our anger, we need it to be safe, we need to tie-trait it in a way so that we can hold it sustainably, right? With power, to stay in the power side of anger.
So, a lot of women experience their anger as a state of powerlessness, and that’s part of the issue too. So, when we cathart, usually we’re taking on way more than we can actually, sustainably hold.

[15:21] Sahara
And I think it comes back to how we view anger. Like, most of us have been raised that anger is a toxic energy and you want to get it out as soon as possible.

[15:30] Maya
That’s right!

[15:32] Sahara
And what I love that you shared is like, really, anger, just like any energy, is something that you can hold on to and let it simmer and build up, and it doesn’t need to be this, like, instant, quick orgasm that you move away from, it can be this like feeling, yeah, you’re holding onto, that’s like channeling you to stand up like the divine mother for her children, or from, you know, what’s happening in the world right now.
And I feel that so many of us, especially with just collective issues, whether it’s women’s reproductive rights, but really everything that’s been going on, it almost feels hopeless to have anger, that’s it’s just like “I don’t even know who to be angry at and what to do about it, so I’m just not going to go there!”
So, what do you have to say around that overall hopelessness that people feel?

[16:25] Maya
Yeah. So, I would say that, this is another, kind of, different paradigm around anger than much of what we have been conditioned to, which is that staying angry is actually incredibly – it can be incredibly clarifying because it’s a very clear no to untruth, it’s a very clear no to distortion, it’s a very clear “I don’t align with that, I don’t resonate with that, no”. And it isn’t necessarily as attached to getting the object of anger to change, which is how we also generally think of anger. It’s like “I’m just going to be angry because I need you to change and be different”, and so, the hopelessness is “Well, what if it never changes? What if it just stays like this?” Well, my anger keeps me very clear that I am a no to this, that it’s not okay with me.
So, it’s a frequency, and it’s a clarifying frequency actually, and it’s part of our power, is the thing, you know. Our anger and our ferocity and our capacity to say no with that kind of ferocity is part of our power and it’s necessary, it’s a necessary part of our power.
People talk about, like you said, you know, especially – I say this when I teach women, if you’re a woman and you’ve gotten the femininity conditioning, you’ve gotten the anti-anger training through that, but if you’re a spiritual woman and a conscious woman, because spirituality is very anti-anger too, you’ve gotten, kind of, the double dips, right? You’ve got the double dose of anti-anger training and I think it’s a really big problem.
We talk a lot about how anger can be toxic, which it can, it absolutely can, but so can disavowing our anger, rejecting our anger, not having access to our anger.

[18:33] Sahara
It prolongs the very situation that you’re angry about. Like, I think of someone who is in a relationship that does not serve them, maybe is even abusive and they might not let themselves get angry because they think “You know, this poor guy, he has trauma from his childhood and maybe I’ll just cope with it, maybe he’ll change”, it’s not letting yourself get angry that’s keeping you in that situation for longer.

[18:56] Maya
That’s right, that’s right! Being nice and accepting can have toxic consequences sometimes.

[19:05] Sahara
And I love something you said that, along the lines of “Anger is the natural and healthy response to abuse”.

[19:12] Maya
That’s right.

[19:13] Sahara
And I think that a lot of us have just been gaslighting ourselves, even with just what’s happening politically, collectively, of “You know what…”, and especially spiritual people, of “Let’s take the high road. Let’s focus on what we do have control over!” And I love how we put a positive spin on things, and yes, like, we have herbs, but is that the solution of our rights being taken away? The next thing they might say is “You know what, there’s going to be no more gay and interracial marriage”, what are we going to say? “You know what, marriage is just made-up, a piece of paper, you don’t need that anyways”, where are we going to draw the lines?
And I think that sometimes spirituality can be used as a tool to keep us numb and to keep us complacent, and if there are any powers that be, what a perfect design, you know, of like, we can do anything and pass any laws, and they’ll find some spiritual reason why this is happening instead of standing up and doing something.
And that’s why the women of Mexico inspired me. Yes, similar law was passed there and they hit the streets and threatened to burn down the Prime Minister’s house, and within 30 days, abortion was decriminalized.

[20:22] Maya
That’s right, that’s right! I mean, this is where I think we need to really be aware of the way that the attitude of patriarchy has infiltrated a lot of our spirituality. And that patriarchal attitude of, you now, to just transcend the problems of the world, to just stay positive, to stay neutral, to stay detached, don’t get involved, right? One could say that that’s a very mountain top, masculine, detached from the sacred world of imminence and relationality. And that’s it’s actually deeply spiritual and it’s a spirituality of the mother and of the divine feminine to roar for the protection of life, for the protection of what is good and sacred, you know, “Don’t poison my oceans. Don’t cut down my trees. Don’t take away the human rights of my children”, that’s love, that’s love, and that is spiritual.

[21:32] Sahara
Yes! And exactly what you said, so much of the spirituality that we’re taught was created by men, for men, and specifically for men who are on an esthetic monkhood path, not for the householder. So, for that person who would want to go into the cave in the Himalayas and, you know, just be in complete nothingness.
And a lot of these texts, too, have changed over time, I’ve actually been diving into Sufism, because how I’ve learned Sufism is, it’s very still in a way, it’s very patriarchal, it’s the men, and I’ve learned that – because the feminine has been wiped out of it, we don’t, we’re not taught that pathway of it anymore, so, because the feminine has been wiped out of basically every single spiritual lineage, we’re left with the masculine and we think that’s what spirituality is, for me to just meditate, to feel nothing, to be neutral, and if I’m reacting, it must be because I’m low-vibration, I’ve got to read more Ellen Watts. And it’s like, that’s a pathway, but that’s not my pathway.

[22:32] Sahara
Yeah, that’s a big one in the kind of New Age spirituality. I mean, what most of us just think of spirituality, is that the goal is be calm and neutral, right? Where the goal is to be calm and neutral and to never be upset, and if you’re upset, then that’s your ego. And if we are really wanting to be embodied and be here, as embodied human beings, as mammals, as relational creatures, as creatures of the earth, as creatures with attachment systems, we’re going to have feelings and those feelings are sacred, those feelings matter actually.

[23:14] Sahara
Absolutely! And I think that so many of us, especially women, have disassociated from that on our spiritual growth journeys and have seen that as our lower selves, but it’s actually our human self, and we’re here, on this human planet, in this physical body, for a reason.

[23:31] Maya
Yeah! Well, this is a rabbit hole that I’m sure we’re not going to go all the way into in this call, but when I have really sought contemplating this and really done my own profound deep inner work, to untangle myself from these patriarchal attitudes, what I think, at least in part, is going on, is that because there has been so much abuse by spiritual teachers and spiritual gurus, I mean, really, it’s a thing! That part of the abuse matrix, and here’s where we see the connection of anger and abuse again, right? Part of the abuse matrix and to continuously enable the abuse is to tell you to never be upset, “Never be upset, be calm and be accepting of everything. And if you are upset, it’s nothing I’m doing, it’s your problem, it’s your projection, something’s going on with you”.
I think that there is a way that this teaching has been generated by abusive spiritual teachers and abusive gurus, because there’s been so many, there’s been so many!
So, again, systems of oppression always seek to pathologize the anger of the oppressed, always! That’s why the anger of women is generally seen as crazy and hysterical; the anger of people of color is generally seen as dangerous; white male anger is generally seen as respectable, authoritative. That’s a big piece to the puzzle.

[25:11] Sahara
Yeah. Anger is an instant discredit and there has been a huge amount of abuse and manipulation by male “spiritual”, I put in quotes because they truly are not embodying that at all. And it’s hard because it’s like, yes, from a perspective, our triggers are coming from within us and there’s an element of truth to that, but the way that it can be used is how a narcissist would use it, of “It’s all in your head, you’re the one that’s getting angry, look at how hysterical you are! Wow, you need a lot of work!” and then it loops you back in.

[25:46] Maya
Exactly, exactly! Yes, there is a truth that our triggers can be our own childhood wounding and our own past stuff, our own projections. And if someone is mistreating us, if someone is lying to us, manipulating us, taking away our rights, invading us, abusing us, anger is the healthy response of my system, saying “No, fuck, no!” This is wolf momma wisdom.

[26:24] Sahara
And when you sit with the anger rather than it needing to be this like volcano that suddenly goes through you, but it doesn’t need to feel so heavy. I think a lot of us, we’re, like, afraid of feeling angry, we’re tired of feeling angry, it feels too heavy to go there, so I’m just not going to.
So, how can we let the anger be this simmering pot that’s also, we also have a simmering pot of joy too, and a simmering pot of other things going on at the same time.

[26:53] Maya
I love that! I mean, the first thing that I’ll say is, yes, I feel anger a lot, throughout my day, particularly because I enjoy anger, I find it pleasurable, I find it fierce, I find it ferocious, I find it nourishing, I find it clarifies me with what I believe in, what I care about, what I stand for. And I also feel delight, and joy, and play, and ease, at the same time.
How do we do that? That’s a really interesting question. I mean, to me, it always comes back to the body, it always comes back to the body. If you just get curious the next time you get angry, and you close your eyes, and you maybe say the words out loud “I’m angry”, just to yourself, your safe space, your altar, your candle, “I’m angry, I’m angry”, and you feel the sensations in your body, you notice where that sensation is and then you start to play with it just as aliveness, as Shakthi, the same way you would play with sensual energy, or any kind of aliveness, and you stay with it, and you open to it, and you breathe into it, and you really stay with the body, with the body. I think anger is naturally so life-giving. I think a lot of our negative associations with anger are just, to be honest with you, the ways that we reject it and deny it. As soon as we just start to just say yes to it, on a really simple, immediate level, it starts to become pleasurable, it’s ferocious, it’s my own, my own lifeforce and clarity of what I care about. Anger shows us what we care about.
And there’s an incredible amount of self-love and self-protection. I think that women have been so conditioned to take care of other people before ourselves, right? So, it’s like “If you hurt me or cross my boundaries, or you betray me, or you mistreat me, I’ll just take care of you anyways because love, because that’s what I do, because it’s fine, it’s fine, I’ll be fine”.
I think that that impacts women in so many ways, it’s sort of like accumulates over time, all these little ways that we self-betray, that we haven’t respected ourselves, that we haven’t honored ourselves. And so, that anger that we start to allow has self-love infused in it, like, genuinely, it has love inside of it, and that’s a beautiful thing.

[29:32] Sahara
Yes, yes! The times that I’ve been angry and sat with it, I come back to the same thing and say I’m angry because I care. And how beautiful is that, to care! Like, if I wasn’t angry, then I don’t care, and that is a tragedy!

[29:47] Maya
Yes, totally! I’m angry because I care about something, which is my passionate heart for justice, for truth, for what is right, for what is good. Or I’m angry because I love myself, I love myself. It’s that subtle wiring that women have to caretake other and take care of other before ourselves. Anger says “I come first. I matter first. I love myself first”, and that’s a beautiful, lovely thing to experience.

[30:25] Sahara
So, what shows up for me, when you say that, and I think is like the feminine conditioning, is like having a narcissistic, angry dad, whose anger was about him first, without any amount of empathy for anyone else. I never want to be that, so that makes me never want to be angry. And I think a lot of people have that, of “I don’t want to be that person who doesn’t realize how they’re hurting people because it’s only about them”. So, how do we confront that part of ourselves?

[30:57] Maya
Well, I think you just have to be really honest. Like, are you a person that uses anger? Because what abusive people do is, they use fake anger, it’s not actually anger, they’re not actually angry, they pretend to be angry, they generate the experience of anger to belittle you, to intimidate you, to bully you, to put you down, to put themselves over you. Do you do that? Is that what you’re motivated by? If so, then yeah, you definitely need to get some support around that. For most people, that is not the case. So, I think it’s just a matter of honor self-inquiry.

[31:46] Sahara
I think a lot of women, especially in the more co-dependent, empath seat, are never wanting to be the narcissist, I never want to be the abuser, so they go the polar opposite, and even inching towards feeling anger, feels “Well, what if I just become like them, so let me just totally stay away”.

[32:05] Maya
Right! Well, I think, again, this is where we have to be really clear about the difference between behavioral anger and the inner experience of anger. So, I might be really, really angry at someone, and because I’m devoted to my anger practice, because I’m devoted to saying yes and being honest with my anger, because I know that my anger is good and wise, and loving, and healthy, I’m going to sit and I’m going to, in an embodied way, really say yes. I’m going to fill up and I’m going to let that fry. And when I talk to them, I might be totally, just, neutral, I might be totally – there’s this level of discernment there.
So, again, we think that it’s about behavior, it’s not, it’s not about behavior. We have to be really discerning with who we actually engage that expression of anger with. And typically, what I’ve found is, it’s either people that we have a safe, consensual agreement with where it’s like “Yeah, we go there together because we’ve built safety and we’ve built trust, and that’s something we do in our relationship. I hold space for you to, like, unleash your anger at me sometimes, and that’s part of our relationship”, or, “It’s a situation where I need to do this for the wellbeing of my soul, and it might not look pretty, and it might not look clean, and it might not look, you know, like the perfect NBC communication style, but I need to do this for me”. Think about the riots, that’s a perfect example, the riots were not like this appropriate, mature, NBC way of expressing anger, but was it a completely appropriate response? Absolutely! That’s a collective social nervous system responding to abuse. That’s the fight response in a collective social nervous system saying no, that’s what happens when there’s a riot. It’s a collective fight response in the nervous system, and it can be necessary sometimes.

[34:27] Sahara
Yeah, I think that having that awareness especially if you have a partner like you can’t, your anger is going to show up eventually, at some point; or a really close friendship, you know. Like, sometimes there’s an initiation into the deepening of the friendship, of like “Can you hold me in my anger with you?” And sometimes that person is not, you know, and the relationship might dissolve. Sometimes there’s conflict and disagreement and the person’s just like “No, I am not willing to hold that”, and it’s like “Okay, then, you’ve reached the level of depth that you can go to together”.

[35:01] Maya
That’s right! Exactly, exactly! Yeah, conflict is typically like a turning point in intimacy, isn’t it? It’s where kind of, we either make it and we go deeper, or we start to dissolve. Yeah, that’s very true.

[35:17] Sahara
So, when do you know when or if you should share – let’s say your anger is to a person, how do you know when or if you should share that vs. doing your own inner work around it?

[35:30] Maya
Well, I might share it but I’m not going to express it in a way, I’m not going to, like, get angry at them. I might explain it myself in a really calm way, but inside, I’m holding the frequency, I’m allowing the embodied experience of my anger as I speak.
I think the choice has to do with discernment, it has to do with – and here’s the other thing, it’s like, I think sometimes women are like “Well, my anger explodes sometimes and it’s really bad and it scares me and I hurt my partner or I hurt my kids”, and then, to them that’s like “Well, I have anger issues, I need to, you know, I need to get less angry”. And I think, unless it’s a person with an abusive structure, which I already described, which, most people are not that, that those explosions of anger are also an indication of having suppressed anger. If we don’t have a sustainable, regular, relationship to our anger, where we’re not letting the bucket fill up, and fill up, and fill up, subconsciously, and stuffing it and stuffing it, we’re tending to it as it’s happening all the time. I don’t think it has to explode in that way, those explosions are the result of suppression – we’ve been holding it, and holding it, and holding it, and holding it, and we don’t have to do that. We get to be allowed to have anger. For a lot of women, they don’t even know that that’s true.

[37:24] Sahara
Yes, absolutely! Those explosions that I’ve always witnessed from my father is because he’s never allowed himself to really sit with why he’s angry and what’s underneath it all, so it’d just be this like boiling water that you just get a little bit too much heat on it and it will explode, but that water was always simmering, it was kind of just waiting for something to tip it off, to let out some steam, you know. But it’s really, that water needed to be poured and poured and sat with.
So, for someone like that, that does have a lot of suppressed anger, would you recommend cathartic rage rituals for them, or more just questioning anger? What does that look like?

[38:04] Maya
So, again, like, for me, it always is about the body. So, when we start to really feel and experience and allow the felt sensation of the Shakthi, the lifeforce of anger – so this is where we have to get out of the patriarchal mindset, that anger is bad or that we know what anger is here for. Anger, if we think of anger as literal Shakthi, as lifeforce, as lifeforce energy, it already has wisdom inside of it, it already has consciousness inside of it, it already has intelligence inside of it. And so, this is what I mean, like, let’s say I’m angry at a friend, we don’t have the kind of relationship where it feels safe or wise for me to really express my anger, I’m going to sit and do my embodiment practices, to really allow how angry I am at them and how angry I am at the situation, and that alone is going to infuse how I speak. So, I don’t have to figure it out, this is the power of embodying them, this is the power of the feminine, because the feminine is the body, the feminine is those deeper currents of intelligence, deeper than our mind.
So, huge difference between “Let me journal and figure out what to say, to say it the right way” vs. “Let me get in touch with my body and allow my body to develop a relationship with my anger”, that’s really what this is about, is maturing our relationship to anger. If my body and my heart has a mature relationship to my anger, mature, meaning I’m willing to go there with myself and I’m willing to develop it, then that’s going to express in more intelligent ways, when I need to express it with me.

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[41:30] Sahara
I was on this kick for a while, a few years ago, of, like, journaling every day, and then I was just like “Do I…?” Like, for me, personally, this was what I would write down “Do I need to sit down and wrote and intellectualize my thoughts more?” And I realized that’s not really what’s missing”, instead, I moved it into breathwork, and dance, and feeling, when else am I going to give myself that chance to just be with it rather than putting it into words and understanding it and where did that come from, and instantly I wake up and I’m in the mind, you know.

[42:05] Maya
Totally! I love that, yes! And this is all part of that shift, which I know you and so many of your friends and listeners care about, that shift into the divine feminine. We’ve been so, patriarchally, focused on the mind and on objectifying our experience, objectifying our body, objectifying our emotions, dominating, controlling, understanding, rather than getting inside of her, on her own terms, for her own sake. What if this anger is totally irrational? That’s fine! What if I stay and I dance with her, I sing with her and I growl with her, and I feel her and I let her infuse my body, can I trust her? Can I trust that that’s going to bless me and bless my life? Because it’s the Goddess, it’s Shakthi, it’s lifeforce, it’s my life arising, it’s my experience arising. And I think it’s very trustworthy when we’re willing to, again, just like sacred sexuality, when we’re willing to be with the energy in a devotional way, that’s really present and really curious. I think that’s when the maturity starts to happen.

[43:26] Sahara
So, yes to all that! And I would love for you to share about the Dark Goddess.

[43:31] Maya
Oh! The Dark Goddess!

[43:33] Sahara
Who is she? Tell us about her!

[43:37] Maya
Oh my gosh! Who is the Dark Goddess? There’s so many different ways to answer that question. You know, I feel like what’s maybe most potent to say right now, if we want to circle it all in with Roe v Wade and everything that’s happening, is that, women’s body, and this is partly why, like, many of us that are goddess devotees and devotees of the feminine have felt this on such a visceral level, because it’s not just a war on women’s bodies and women as human beings with human rights, it’s a very ancient war on the Goddess.
So, women’s body, body of woman is a perfect symbolic metaphor for the Goddess and the feminine, right? We have the ability to take a formless soul spirit down into matter, we have the ability to – that’s pretty incredible when you think about it. It’s a process, it’s not just growing a body, growing a life, it’s taking a soul into form and incarnation. The life is not just the light, life is not just birth, life is also death, and our bodies are also the place of menstruation and miscarriage, and abortion and death, that we carry this incredible in our wombs and our sex are these portals between the worlds, where life and death happens, right?
Dark Goddess is just the other side, it’s the side of the true, deep nature of what reality is, that is also sacred, that is also holy. We have a big issue with her in patriarchy, we want to see the feminine as a light, Mother Mary, Quan Yin, the gentle accepting, loving – and you can see how this ties in with the conversations on women’s rights to their own bodies, because we are actually doers of the life-death bridge, and that is part of the sacred design of women, that is part of the Goddess, that’s why the Goddess worshippers, we’re also midwives, they were doulas, they were tending to the bodies of women. The fixation on only the light feminine and the light side of reality is very much part of patriarchy because creation and existence is the wholeness of them.

[46:26] Sahara
And you have a poem about this.

[46:28] Maya
Yes, I do! Should I read it?

[46:31] Sahara
Yes! Share it with us!

[46:33] Maya – poem
Alright! I will share it.
So, when I first heard that Roe v Wade was possibly going to be overturned, I was just feeling into this ancient, you know, the Christian crusades that burned the witches who were Goddess devotees, tending to the body of women, tending to this ancient, sacred right of the womb, pregnancy, miscarriage and abortion. So, this poem came through. I think before I read it, I want to also share that I wrote this poem and then, a day or two later, I found out that some of the 17th century writing that they were quoting to prove that Roe was unconstitutional and overturn it. Did you hear about this? They’re quoting actual witch burners, well, judge Ellido was quoting Matthew Hale, I believe is his name, and these are guys, back in the day, that saw women as evil and dangerous and quoting their views on women and women’s rights and abortion in order to come up with a good plan for how we should regard women today. So, it’s all very deep and very connected. Alright.

[47:57] Maya – poem
Those witches they burned were gynecologists, midwife, doula, abortionist,
Miscarriage tender, pregnancy preventer, medicine carrier, potion, bottle, herb and womb.
The ones who knew that secret incantation,
The mysteries of the blood of incarnation.
Body of woman, most ancient temple, original church, the first place of worship and reverence.
Body of woman, bridge between spirit and matter, pulling souls down to Earth, stitching divine into flesh.
Body of woman, that swelling of tide that sheds and dies, grows and births, feeds life and kills life right between her thighs.
Body of woman, turning cycles with the Moon,
Endless throb of creation, portal between the two worlds.
Is it any wonder that those witches they burned for tending to this temple of relentless power and aching divinity, were also devotees of the Goddess.
Goddess of Moon, Goddess of Snake, Goddess of Earth and Dirt, booming your orgasming birth, screaming love into being and singing us all to our death, radical realm of impermanence, incarnation.
Snake sheds skin; Moon sheds skin; Womb sheds skin; All matter sheds skin,
As it blossoms, blooms and dies,
Matter which means Mother.
Mother of life, we have visioned you only in the light,
Generous, self-sacrificing face of the feminine,
Sweet, gentle mother of yes,
We have tried to banish your other face,
Mother of Death, Dark Mother of Destruction, Miscarriage, Menstruation and even Abortion,
We forgot, a good mother knows when to say no,
We forgot to bow our heads low to the sacred act of letting go.
Body of woman, we fear what you know about existence,
What the witches knew, and the midwives knew,
How to anoint that round-bellied one who is both light and dark, life and death,
Who turns time, who both gives and takes away.
They’ve tried to break our backs to bow for five thousand years, to worship the idols of transcendence and forsake the sacred imminence,
To repent our sins, to the Father for forgiveness,
Who say they are pro-life, yet know nothing of the vital mysteries of creation.
Body of woman, you are the place they cannot wash out,
You’re the terrifying reminder of everything we wish to forget.
Body of woman, sanctuary of beginnings, fertile ground of sacred endings,
Where the whole truth of the nature of reality,
You are holy darkness, bleeding into holy light.
Body of woman, whose power is beyond all power, whose power has been envied, scorned, hated, vilified, demonized, tortured and traumatized,
Body of woman, you are the soft, pink and tender place where violence and war has been waged,
Where the religion of unfathomable love became the place of abominable domination.
Body of woman, your body has been made not your own,
Body of woman, they tried to take the Goddess out of you,
Body of woman, bridge between spirit and matter, vessel of the two worlds, holy portal of life and death,
Forgive us, Mother, for we know not what we do.

[52:59] Sahara
Wow! Give me a moment to take that all in, I had chills, stirring so many…thank you for your words and your ability to just, like, put this essence that we’re all feeling into a vibration that can be shared. And when you said something, I’ve just never heard it been said like this before, but “A good mother knows when to say no”.

[53:28] Maya
That’s right, that’s right! And that brings us right back to sacred anger because anger usually is a no, it’s a no. And women have been really conditioned to never say no.

[53:42] Sahara
And I think a lot of women hold guilt around their abortions, around “That must make me a bad mother, unable to be a mother”, and it’s interesting to know that at least 60% of people who have had abortions are already mothers, who just know that, right now, is not the time, it’s not allowing them to be the best mothers they can be for their children, who are already here. So, you just saying that, for so many listening, can just feel this, like, “You didn’t do anything wrong”.

[54:17] Maya
That’s right, yeah. This is the patriarchalized vision of the mother and the divine feminine, as just endlessly martyring, self-sacrificing, endlessly yes and we need to trust women and that ancient intelligence of woman, that knows how to be the bridge, that knows when to say yes and when to say no. And this, I think what’s happening right now is a big energetic silencing, and I think women need to be honest about the anger that might be arising in the face of that level of disrespect, because it’s a huge disrespect.
I loved the poem that you wrote about it too, actually. It’s like, you have no idea, you have no idea what this is like, to hold and carry this, this womb, this reality, you don’t get to decide with your mind.

[55:29] Sahara
Thank you for that. And yeah, it saddens me, I saw this video yesterday, by this very popular comedian who is very pro-choice when it comes to mandates and certain issues, and very not pro-choice on this issue, and I was curious to see this person’s perspective and he said that abortion is evil, it’s the most evil thing that you can do. And it reminds me of the people who burned the witches, of “It’s not about you, women, it’s not about how you feel, you caring about your rights, that’s pure evil, satanic, there’s an agenda behind that”, and then, all of the, just like, the manipulation and, you know, it’s just, it’s so interesting to witness. A lot of the spiritual community, I feel, because of the past two years, has shifted more right-leaning because the right has been more pro-choice on certain topics, but then, now, seeing them take it on this anti-choice, on this topic, it has been – because I don’t call that pro-life, it’s anti-choice, and it’s just been so interesting to witness because it’s like – and I think that within every death, like you said, there’s an opportunity for birth, for a new system, where it’s like “Where do we stand, neither side?”

[56:51] Maya
Yeah, I mean, there’s so much here. I think that we have to really look at how we view women and the deeply embedded misogyny of our views of women as a sacrificial martyr object, right? That a tiny zygon would be more important, that a woman, regardless of the harm to her life, to that being’s life, regardless of the pain and the suffering and the trauma or the death. I mean, we know that the leading cause of death for pregnant women is homicide, murder; the leading cause of death in America, pregnant women’s homes, that we would continuously view women as a sacrificial object and martyr, rather than a sovereign human being, with her own life, with her own body, with her own reality that matters.
And I think, again, just like in the poem, this is what I’ll say, I haven’t said this anywhere publicly yet, and I haven’t seen anyone else talk about it, but it feels important. I think that there is a truth to the reality of death that abortion is, no matter how early on it is, and I think that we need to respect that death as a sacred death. I think that’s part of the thing, it’s like “Oh, it’s a death, so it’s wrong” or “No, it’s not a death, because it doesn’t matter, because it’s not really anything”, what if it actually is a thing that matters? What if it actually is a death and what if that death is sacred and holy, and something that we can create, respect and reverence in ritual?
Of course, this is not really the issue, I don’t think. I don’t think the people pressing these laws are doing so because they are concerned about, like you said, they’re not pro-life, they’re not. If they were pro-life, they would be in service to life in a true way, real way, that’s the kind of narcissistic gaslighting that abortion can absolutely be in service to life, in true service to life. It’s about something else and it’s an ancient war, it’s an ancient war on the Goddess, it’s an ancient war on the fertility Goddess, it’s an ancient war on the patriarchy, on women, on the body of women, on the Goddess. And so, it matters, it matters even if it doesn’t personally affect you, it matters. And I think our anger is very, very ancient here, very, very, very ancient, and something to embrace, regardless of what happens, because it’s true.

[59:53] Sahara
Exactly! And I think the anger, for me, it came down to like, even just the act of sex, how a man’s pleasure even for one minute, you know, can cause so much pain for the woman. And you know, even in different sexual acts, let’s talk about a blowjob, deep-throating, even that can be like “Your pleasure is my pain”, and for so many women, penetration is painful for them, “Your pleasure is my pain”, and that theme over and over and over again, that I’ve sat with that, even far before this, and just how deep that is and how much we mutilate ourselves through plastic surgery and even taking birth control pills, we’re like “Probably can give me cancer but you know, I’ve got to make sure you feel good all the time”, and it’s that constant being the martyr for a man’s pleasure.

[1:00:50] Maya
That’s right! And again, femininity programming, not self-advocating, not saying no, not setting boundaries, not creating limits, just kind of going along with, right?

[1:01:04] Sahara
Because of that fear of the abandonment that might happen on the other side, which is the other deep wound I’ve tuned into of the impregnation and the abandonment that has happened time and time again, of the baby becomes the woman’s problem. It’s even that big of a woman’s issue, like, how many men have benefited from abortions?

[1:01:25] Maya
That’s right! Yes! And the fact that men cause pregnancy. We’re very programmed to see women’s reproduction as something that you just suffer because of, you just suffer. And that’s some old-school, old testament stuff, kicked out of the Garden of Eden, Eve has to suffer through her pregnancies, it’s deep, it’s deep that we expect women to experience suffering and pain around their reproduction, that we expect women to be controlled by and less free because of their reproduction. That’s why having access to, let’s be real again, you know this but we didn’t stop abortion, we prevented safe abortions from having. We didn’t stop abortion, we’ll never stop abortion, women will have abortions forever. What we did was, we took safe abortion away for many, many women. And that’s fucked up, and that’s wrong, and that’s something to be really angry about.

[1:02:42] Sahara
I’m sure, right now, every person listening to this can feel that anger that’s moving through, so what do I do? What can we do? Is there something to do? What’s the practice now?

[1:02:57] Maya
I think that, my experience has been like, everyone is kind of still getting their bearings, like, there was shock actually, there was a lot of shock. I think that, as we come out of the shock and come grounded, I think the most powerful that women can do right now, honestly, is stay angry, stay angry, because this goes so deep, this is every violation that every woman has ever experienced on her sovereignty, in her body. This is every violation of her boundaries, this is every violation of her sex, this is every violation of her innocence, that a woman has ever experienced. And this anger is holy, this anger is holy! And I think that when we stay with it, we can allow it to infuse our actions. If we encourage it in each other and stop shutting other women down! Stop shutting other women down!
I think there’s multiple levels, there’s politically, there’s a voting, there’s creating allyships with people that are tending to this, on a community level (especially poor communities), there is the spiritual and multidimensional level, which is the stand for the Goddess and the divine feminine, like, really. This rage is holy; this rage is on behalf of her and she who has been vilified by the same patriarchal, this, I’m just going to say, like, fake Christianity, that’s what I’m going to call it – misogynistic Christianity, has been the enemy of the Goddess for a very long time. So, stay with the frequency.
And I think that it shows you, it shows you, it shows you! Just like you would do any other divination or sacred spiritual practice or yoga or meditation, stay with this, let it rise up from the ground, let it rise up volcanic, stay with it. This is her, this is her love! Let anger become a spiritual practice, how about that!

[1:05:23] Sahara
Absolutely! I think that this Covid caused us to finally sit with mental health and loneliness, and these different topics that maybe this will, collectively, invite all of us, and especially the women, to sit with their anger and to not be so afraid of it or combating against it.
It’s been so beautiful to witness, I saw this 11-year-old girl at a protest and she was really nervous to get on the microphone and speak to everyone, and she just got on and she spoke so beautifully, from the heart, just, like “What would I do if…you know, mistakes happen, rape happens, all these things happen, what would I do?”, and to just feel this young girl, but so connected to the collective devastation.
And I think so many of us, just, we won’t let ourselves go there, it’s too much! You know, it sails in so many beautiful ways from the people protesting, which, by the way I shared with you, I was looking on Twitter, I was “What are the hashtags for this movement?”, nothing, there was zero hashtag around it, I’m like “There definitely are people protesting, but I’m not seeing it on the news, I’m not seeing it on TV, it’s being hidden”. So, the only place I see it is TikTok, just because users are putting it up.
So, I think we don’t know and we feel so alone because they’re making us feel so alone, because then when you feel like “What am I going to do? My hands are up?” And especially the women, they are the ones who are holding their families, who are holding everything together, the single mother especially, the backbone of our society that they wear you down so much so you have no energy to fight back, you have no energy to be angry. So, just to be able to hold onto that and to know that you’re not alone.
And that’s why I think circle is so needed for communities, to get together of, you know, how are we going to channel this in our States because now it’s not a lost cause, now the States have power, so we need all the conscious community that’s moved to Austin, Texas, for the freedom, we need you, loud, talking about our freedom on this issue as well.

[1:07:29] Maya
Yeah. I mean, sex protest, isn’t that what we’re talking about yet? I think one thing that I’m feeling arising in my own space, and I actually wrote a post about it yesterday on Facebook and like a thousand people liked it, and I was like “Okay, I think this is tapping a nerve!” And it’s basically like, since Roe happened, I’ve just been feeling this energy in my personal life, of deep, deep, deep boundary around “You may not take from me. If you want to be in my space, for anyone, not just men, anyone, but maybe particularly men, if you want to be in my space, you need to contribute to my life, you need to add to my life, you need to be, yeah, contributing something of real, deep value that benefits me and serves my wellbeing and my health and my flowering, and if you don’t, leave me alone!”
And I think that there’s something around that that’s really wanting to come through with the feminine right now. It’s like, if we are really devotees of the Goddess, if we are really her daughter, if we are really wanting to stand for the divine feminine, and we know the profound connection between, again, body of woman, bridge between spirit and matter, imminence, incarnation, the way that this, our bodies are walking symbols of her, it might be time to up our standards in a profound way, because this is such a disrespect. It doesn’t matter what State you’re in, we’re so enmeshed with the political field, you can’t not be if you live here – I mean, people in, all over the world, are feeling it, who don’t even live here, you know. Like, it’s a message, it’s not just a practical concern, it’s a message.
And so, our message back, I think, can and should be doubled down on your standards and your requirements for who you allow in your space, and how you allow them to treat you. Require, stand for the Goddess by requiring that your life be fed and not just taken from, but no one is entitled to take from you, no one is entitled to consume and feed off of you. Stand for your worth, I think that’s it.

[1:10:12] Sahara
So, let’s say someone has a partner, or they’re dating someone and these men may say “You know what, I don’t believe in abortion”, how can a woman, right now, who are in these situations, stand up?

[1:10:26] Maya
If their partner is…

[1:10:29] Sahara
Partner or people they’re dating.

[1:10:32] Maya
I mean, do you have an answer? Do you have an answer?

[1:10:39] Sahara
Divorce them. I see a lot of women are in relationships with men who are on a very different journey, and they may have this deep love, but see very differently, politically. But on something like this, to me, it brings up, there’s just a lack of respect, it’s a respect issue, but it’s – and it’s like, yes, you can try to educate, but yeah, to me, it would feel like the poem “I cannot debate you with the mind around my womb”, so, yeah, maybe it’s them, really sitting with the power of the womb and like understanding how she bleeds and how she chooses and how she brings and creates life, to help them understand – I can imagine right now that there are partners in conflict around this issue.

[1:11:30] Maya
You know, I hadn’t even thought of that, that hasn’t even occurred to me, that people would even find themselves in a relationship with that kind of differing of opinion, but you’re right, that might be the case. I can’t even really imagine, to be honest, but I’m just going to echo what I said before. Like, what I would love to see is a mass revolution of women heightening their standards in a big, big, big, big way, claiming their own worth by requiring. My God, I mean, this issue that a lot of women have, and a lot of spiritual women especially have, if they don’t know how to say no, they don’t know how to have – you know, this has been my own personal journey too. Women put up with a lot of crap that they should not be putting up with. Women put up with a lot, a lot of mistreatment. And what would happen if women just decided to start saying no, “No, me first. I matter. You can contribute and support and nourish me”, and not out of some narcissistic ego thing, but literally because we need to model that frequency for the planet, for Gaia. If body of women is the body of earth, and it is, because when the body and woman was worshipped as holy temple, so was the body of earth, they are one. Gaia and body of woman; Gaia and womb are one. It makes sense right now, for us to hold the frequency and say “Honor the feminine, feed the feminine, respect the feminine, support the feminine or leave, go away, you’re not allowed. I’m happy to nourish you and love you and connect and share my gifts with you, but only in exchange for respect. You don’t just get to take from me”. That’s a powerful mass frequency to hold.

[1:13:43] Sahara
So beautifully said! Well, thank you so much for sharing your beautiful words! Do you have any final words or poem, or anything that you would love to share?

[1:13:54] Maya
I think I just want to highlight the last piece again. I think that it’s really women who have connection to the frequency of the Goddess, to drop the martyrdom, to drop the martyrdom and actually shift into “I am a microcosm of the earth. I am a microcosm of her, so I do not allow mistreatment, that is part of my spiritual depression, the holy no!”

[1:14:24] Sahara
Yes! For ourselves, for the planet, for our daughters, we’re all of it!

[1:14:30] Maya
Yes, yes!

[1:14:31] Sahara
Well, thank you so much for sharing your medicine with us today. And where can listeners further connect with you and hear your beautiful poetry on Spotify?

[1:14:42] Maya
Yeah, you can look Maya Luna on Spotify, I have a spoken word poetry album and an album of embodiment practices, guided embodiment practices.
And my website is deepfemininemysteryschool.com

[1:14:59] Sahara
Well, thank you again for being with us today, we so deeply appreciated it!

[1:15:03] Maya
Thank you so much for having me, it’s been an honor to be with you. Thank you.

[1:15:06] End of Interview
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[1:15:07] Sahara
I hope this Episode resonated with your womb in the way that it has mine. And we need to continue to have these conversations, so please, share, on your Instagram stories, via email, however you connect with your tribe, text message groups, WhatsApps, we need to get this out, because every single woman who is awakened to her sacred rage can channel it towards creating the solutions, creating the new paradigm. So, please, share this conversation, tag us on Instagram, I would love to see what insights have arisen from you. Pleased share in the comments of my Instagram for this post, I’m so curious to see and let’s continue this discussion.

[1:15:51] Sahara
I hope that you loved this Episode, know that bills are being passed in different States, look at your local States. I know, here in Florida, luckily there was a bill passed saying it was unconstitutional to do this ban, so I’m very happy with that. However, Texas, many different States out there, we still need you to rise up.
And again, this isn’t just a woman’s issue, this is a human issue! So, bring your partner, bring your spouse, bring your friends, bring everyone involved, because our human rights cannot be stripped away, this is a slippery slope, this same judge has said they want to eventually ban contraception, gay and interracial marriage, so this is what we’re up against. And if we don’t talk about it, if we don’t talk about the truth and we remain in our la la la la imagination, that’s how those powers that be can easily take over.

[1:16:38] Sahara
So, the other side of being joyful is being honest, and this is honestly what we’re up against, and through looking at it dead in the eye, we can rise and create the highest possible outcome for all.
So, please, please share this Episode, share your voice, make a change! I can’t wait to read your feedback, like always! Please, leave a review for the Podcast, this helps it be heard by more people. Share this Episode, if you loved this Episode, tell people to come to this Episode, this helps more people listen to it, people who maybe feel alone, people who, everyone around them is telling them to think a certain way, they haven’t heard people have a discussion like this. So, please share your review.

[1:17:20] Sahara
And also, as a free gift for leaving a review for the Podcast, I will send you my free Five-Day Discover Your Soul’s Purpose Meditation Course. So, you can email that over to me at [email protected]. Again, that’s [email protected] just take a screenshot of your review, and you can find all this information in the show notes.

[1:17:40] Sahara
Thank you so much for listening, and I’ll see you in the next one. Namaste

 

Episode 444: Sacred Feminine Rage in a Post Roe v Wade Overturn World with Maya Luna
By Sahara Rose